I have been invited to dance or a drink by Guys at a local night club, and it is hilarating.
a few times they have eaven invited me to go out with them, and I have felt a strange rush and even think of going with them.... but I think they where not my type at first, and secondly I dont feel safe going out of safe area.
So I thought of it but never crosed the line.... Yet!!
Originally Posted by Rhonda Jean
I really enjoyed your story and I learned something...i've never met anyone that mirrors your experience and you described it with warmth and honesty
Thanks Reine and Kaitlyn for the kind words.
Reine... My thoughts about those who want to be with men... The reason I responded was that I knew that if my ex wife had read these responses that it would have most likely confirmed what she already felt about me when it's not me! She was absolutely convinced that she knew exactly what was going on in MY head! More so than I did, or at least more so than I'd admit to her. I imagine that there are other GG's reading this thread who are having the same reaction. My hope is that they'll re-think it.
Men just don't do it for me. Never ever have. Not even in fantasy. I fully realize that my appearance seems to contradict that. Within the realm of fantasy there is certainly room for a beautiful crossdresser, but I realize that that's not reality, nor do I want it to be.
I suppose the acid test was after my divorce. I was free to explore whatever I wanted, and even tried to convince myself that I should try it at least once. Remember... maybe she was right. I just couldn't conjure up any interest, attraction, or desire. Even with an attractive cd.
I attended two TG support group meetings. One was blah. I was the only cd. The rest were TS (and were convinced that I was, too. Even after just meeting me). Just wasn't my thing at all. The other meeting was all cds. They were all very feminine, engaging, and came across as genuinely nice people. Still, I was surprised at the amount of sexual banter and grab-ass. Not my thing, but there was my opportunity for something to happen with an attractive cd. Like I said... in the end I only wanted the fantasy.
I don't know much about Tri-Ess. As with any other group, I'm sure there are many imposters among their strictly-heterosexual-declared members, but who knows? I'm equally sure they fill an important niche.
I wear myself out analyzing this stuff. I've done a lot less of it over the last several months since getting into a serious relationship (with a beautiful GG!). I'm tired of the constant analysis consuming my life. I relish the feminine touches that are still very much a part of my life with my girlfriend, and glad I didn't have to give up everything, but I am no longer consumed by trying to attain some sort of personal feminine ideal and there is no particular destination. I'm already there.
Rhonda Jean,
For all the success implied by being together for 30 years, I congratulate you and your wife. That things changed and this process put you both through all the pain that comes with change, you both have my sincere sympathy - and support. I hope, from all that, you both achieve even more happiness eventually.
Since you've been divorced "for some time now" I'll venture a further response. I do hope it's been at least of few years, however, and not less than two years. I am sorry for the things in life that cause us regret and any loss of this sort takes time to ease. Sometimes, "more IS better."
Actually, you did write a thesis. It seems to be, "Yes, I crossdressed for decades and took time away from my wife, our marriage, and ultimately myself - but it had nothing to do with men in any way, shape, or form.
My thesis, in this thread has been that it always has to do with at least one man: the crossdresser himself. I read nothing in your remarkable post to make me think I was far off the mark. In one way or another, CDing involves, as the original poster offered and the next 22,000 views seem to support, and which I have increasingly become convinced is the case, thoughts of being with another man are always there...
I don't think CDing is necessarily a bad thing. It comes about for someone because it has it's positives and it can be utilized for good or bad in one's life. I just happen to think the more positive approach to take with it is to accept that it as "a shade of gay" and to not kid oneself about having this particular element in one's being. You and your current SO, for example, are working with this element of yourself, and that may be all to the good. Long experience informs most of us that it's better to work with ourselves than against ourselves.
My SOs and I get along as well as we have, or, do, because I have learned to consider what time and energy I put into CDing and to balance that against our common goals and our progress towards them. I don't assume that anything I do is better because I do it more, nor do I assume that not doing it at all works better than some. Nothing new here, people argue for balance often in these forum pages...
What may be new is stating that CDing is a step across the line, if there is one, that separates "strictly heterosexual" behavior from "strictly homosexual" behavior and that taken that slight shading in one's life as a given frees the CDer from having to fight the gay/not gay battle entirely. Just shrug and go on. And, it makes common cause with the millions and millions of people who do battle daily for individual freedoms.
Thank you again for your post and I hope my thoughts might be of some positive use to you. It's unfortunate that we all seem to cause ourselves problems in one way or another, but this is very often how we learn to do better.
Good luck then.
Very well put, Reine!
MKL: Or...maybe Rhonda Jean means just what she says and doesn't need advice.
Rhonda Jean,
I'm glad you've come to a good place in your life. My best to you and your GG!
Last edited by KayC; 04-09-2010 at 01:31 PM.
Enacting life's lessons into positive change...
Ahhh, MK,
Thoughtful insight and discourse is always good! You have your well-thought-out opinions and I have mine, each derived from our own realities. I'm not into men at all. It's just that simple. That cding is a "shade of gay" I couldn't agree more. My own shade is that when I'm out interacting with women and doing my best to "be one" for that period of time, I suspect that 99% of them assume I am into men, just as they are. It's an inevitable assumed commonality, given my appearance and demeanor. It's not even something that, during those interactions, I try to refute (unless asked, which it rarely is). I'm fine with being one of the girls in every way that it comes about. It's part of the deal, and probably enhances the whole experience. Fact is, though, that when they go home to their boyfriends and husbands, I'm going home to my girlfriend (or alone, as I currently am), and that's the only way I like it. I don't mind them thinking that I'm into men. If I saw someone who looked/dressed like me I'd bet the house that they were into men. I've even played along with them (the girls) in conversation, but when push comes to shove it's just not my thing, and I'm betting I'm not the only one.
I don't get it either. I've gone through more than one phase of dressing to be noticed, especially with the whole cleavage thing. Maybe I'm always dressing to be noticed, just sometimes more than others. Still, I'd rather avoid men altogether, if that were possible. It always makes me feel uncomfortable. Attention from men has never been something I sought nor enjoyed. My mode of dress would suggest otherwise. I wish I had a more insightful observation other than just to say, "It just ain't my thing." It'd make a lot more sense if it was.
**MKL: Or...maybe Rhonda Jean means just what she says and doesn't need advice.
KayC,
Well, I may have missed a clear statement of, "I don't need advice."
What I read was, "This is what happened to me and this is what was and wasn't important about all that - as I understand things - as relates to this topic."
Had RJ not indicated a significant amount of time had passed, and had moved into another relationship, I would not have continued the discussion underway - at least not by replying to RJ's post - too soon, too tender...
It was, however, an excellent post and seemingly reasonable to respond to/with. In the midst of that post, it remained unclear if the issue raised by the OP and picked up on by the rest of us, "the man thing" wasn't a factor after all.
Reread what RJ wrote. Despite RJs conclusions about not being drawn to men in some way, etc. the written words belie that stated conclusion.
And, I'm not against, "the man thing." I am, however, interested in pointing out that it is/was there and is always a factor.
But, I have made my point now several times and will give this thread a rest until at least Monday.
Meanwhile, perhaps someone will start a new thread using RD's question to RJ:
"Please tell me, what do you make of the majority of the respondents in this thread who want to be with men? Did you not fantasize about this? Didn't you go through a phase of wondering what it would be like? And what are your thoughts about those who point out that Tri-ess omits a basic truth about CDs, that fantasies about sex with men as a woman is a part of it and always has been since their youth?"
Maybe Tr-ess omits a basic truth in some peoples eyes, but for others there never has been an attraction to men, or to dress to please men ......... Why is it so difficult for some to accept that as another's truth.......... there are several CDers on site that I know off that would never dream of dressing to attract/have sex with men ........ Debs is one, the others I refuse to divulge their names
I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me
I'd say its absolutely a certainty that many CDers never want or fantasize about being with men.Maybe Tr-ess omits a basic truth in some peoples eyes, but for others there never has been an attraction to men, or to dress to please men ......... Why is it so difficult for some to accept that as another's truth
The problem I personally had with Tri-ess was when I went to a few meetings, they insisted that there were NO homosexual or bisexual CDers. While this group is very supportive and helpful to those that are heterosexual, people like myself that are bisexual or homosexual were left out in the cold. It was kind of like someone saying to me, "sorry, but you don't actually exist." Its sort of the opposite thesis to MK's posts.
The real problem I think is that many of us due to our lack of a true understanding of Crossdressing wish to clump us all into a black and white mold of what a crossdresser is like usually one that fits our own mold, (this would probably make things much simpler for a GG) but alas we all don't fit into one mold or another, and I think we need to deal with each individual as an individual. What is a truth for me, is most certainly not a truth for every crossdresser.
MKL: Maybe the title of this thread attracts more that are into guys than those who are not, skewing the "majority" as a figure.
Rhonda Jean didn't ask for advice so I assumed she didn't need it, she sounds happy as she is, if I'm mistaken, my bad.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on most things. Have a great day, I intend to!
Enacting life's lessons into positive change...
Sheila, in this very thread there were CDs who said they are not attracted to men. But what came as a surprise was the majority who did. I dare say most GGs believe believe the line about the "majority" of CDs engaging in the CDing for stress release or for emotional expression. Tri-ess wants to have people believe that for the "majority" of CDs, sexual expression is not a part of it. This thread proves otherwise, as well as Novic's book which is about the CDing. Books written about TSs would not have the same issues.
I am talking about a tendency here, not individual cases. If both the GGs and the CDs can be real about the general tendencies and know they exist, they will be better prepared to enter a discussion about it in their individual circumstances, and perhaps it might explain issues they are having in other areas. In this particular thread, the truth coming out is that it is the rare CD who has not experienced fantasies of being a woman with a man, and this is something that should come out in the open, IMO. The degree to which these desires are present within individuals will vary. Whether it is an occasional, private, fun fantasy that doesn't take away from the sexual relationships with a wife, vs. a stronger fantasy that causes issues in the bedroom is up to the couple to determine. But the fantasies are real and they are much more prevalent than people like to admit, including Tri-ess.
Reine
Reine, your last line is perfect...
But the fantasies are real and they are much more prevalent than people like to admit, including Tri-ess.
Oustide of the effects this has on an SO, being someone who is not attracted to men at all, in anyway, having those thoughts and fantasies pop up when they occurred was, and still is a very confusing thing because it just doesn't add up, for me anyway. As pointed out many times in this thread, with over 22,000 views, this IS clearly a thought process for most CD's and I would imagine for many, it is also one of the most confusing things to experience.
This discussion is great and has covered so many areas around it, but at the bottom of it all and perhaps a better question for many of us is why do these desires occur in the first place? Like me, a lot if not most have stated they are not attracted to men and only have these thoughts when dressed. I have been thinking about that a lot and made a seperate post about why that may be for us heterosexuals, but it got merged into this and is a few pages back. For me, I am trying to understand were they come from. If I can find MY reason, then I can better deal with it. :D
I would say because it just is the way it is. It is all a part of the transgender feelings. Just like your eyes are the color that they are. (Sheila ... I am not saying that your SO experiences this.But the conclusion in this thread is that the majority do, to some degree).
But for CDs to say they are not attracted to men since it doesn't count when it is only present when they are dressed, and because of this there is no reason to involve the SO, does not help the SO deal with the issues that she faces.
And the other major point is that the degree of attraction would be individual. It is worth repeating that for some, it is an occasional, private, fun fantasy that doesn't take away from the sexual relationships with a wife. For others, it is a stronger fantasy that may cause issues in the bedroom with the wife and if this is the case, the wife needs to know this.
Last edited by ReineD; 04-09-2010 at 06:00 PM.
Reine
[SIZE=2]Just based on over 22,600 hits in less than 4 months, I would think those numbers speak for themselves.....[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]If some want to beleive otherwise, so be it...but just imagine if Every single person actually spilled the beans on their utmost deepest secret thoughts? which many will Never do here or anywhere, Ever!..but if they did, I bet it would totally blow many many minds....of course for many, they are just thoughts & fantasies & will never really act on them..but many others will if given that chance in total privacy...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]I just hope the ones that do act on it also practice safe sex...thats all..[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Karen[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]I really do have the...Right To Be Wrong.. [/SIZE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkSTG...eature=channel [SIZE=2]and my mistakes will make me strong![/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Just call out my name...and I'll come running...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SxTo...eature=related just lovin classic JT again...[/SIZE]
Bulls-eye Reine.
It's interesting to me that this is such a polarizing issue.
What is so wrong with having an occasional attraction to or fantasy about men? I think it's a shame that many GG's would hold their man to a standard that they themselves don't meet. Just because a guy can admit sexual feelings for another guy does not mean he's gay or even wants to be gay.
I got news for the hets, being gay is a lot more than sex. I've said it before but a fantasy about sex with a man or even having sex with a man does not make you gay. However, if your fantasies lean more toward romance with a man then you may very well have homo tendencies. Think of it like this, if you have a quickie with a guy at a wild party, you may or may not be gay. But if you spend all afternoon shopping while holding hands and snuggle together during a movie, you're definitely gay or bi, whether you had sex or not.
Personally I'm bi and can go either way anytime. I could be in a relationship happily with either gender. If I was with a woman, she wouldn't have to wonder if I liked men, she would know. I love men, so what? I wouldn't spend time trying to convince her I didn't like penises, I would spend time convincing her that she was the most important person in my life.
Honesty is the key, and the truth will set you free.
-Misty
No Misty!We're going in circles here. I'll be blunt. If a GG has issues in the bedroom with her husband and then it becomes apparent that he spends time and energy with femme fantasies, it is a problem. It is obviously not an issue if their sex life is intact. But for a CD to um .... be auto-erotic and then to have sexual issues with his wife is problematic. This isn't so difficult to understand, is it?
It is not about being gay or bi. It is about a behavior that comes between a husband and a wife if they do have issues in the bedroom. But how many CDs who have such issues will believe that their auto-eroticsm doesn't count, or it isn't their wife's concern, since it is not done while they are in guy mode? In other words, just to make it clear, why the higher libido with the femme fantasies and the low libido with the wife? I imagine some GGs for reasons of their own are OK with this. Others are not.
And I'm not talking about the middle-aged CDs who have low libido issues all around due to their age, medications, or any other reason. It is the idea that a wife should be compartmentalized just like the dressing is for many CDs. Does this make sense?
Last edited by ReineD; 04-09-2010 at 11:17 PM.
Reine
No circles hon, we actually agree. I just didn't do a very good job of making my point.No Misty!
Indeed, if there are sexual issues because of gay fantasies, then there is definitely a problem. However, I suspect that my plea for honesty would go a long way towards solving those problems.
My point was simply that fantasies or desires are NOT the problem. I fantasize about murdering someone nearly every morning during my drive to the office. Even though the fantasies can sometimes get fairly detailed involving all sorts of implements and explosives, I'm still certain that there is no law broken and no murder conviction will be forthcoming.
Speaking as someone who struggled with gay desires through two marriages until I finally came out during the first 6 months of my 2nd marriage (which ended it), I can say without a doubt that open and honest acknowledgment of my attraction to men would have absolutely saved my first marriage. Those feelings don't go away, they just get internalized and redirected as very harmful energy. The sexuality issues would not have bothered her, but nearly 10 years of mood swings and distance finally killed the marriage. Looking back, I would have left me too.
What price honesty? Would she have left if I would have let her in? Maybe, but the refusal to admit my desire, only bought me another few years of a bad marriage. The truth would have truly set me free.
I'm pretty sure that any straight or bi man who harbors secret gay fantasies would get "excited" by just talking about it with his wife if she was accepting and playful. Don't want a "submissive" husband? Then talk about it. Tell him what you want, do some role playing, compromise a bit. Make a deal, he can pretend to be a princess tonight if he'll pretend to be a fireman tomorrow. CD's love to dress up and and play, get some fun "manly" costumes and take turns wearing them.
Listen folks, almost all of us are of a "certain age" except me, so we need to stop acting like we're goofy teenagers and start acting like grownups when it comes to sexuality. We're ALL a little freaky in some way so let your freak flag fly.
Grow up and be honest with yourself and your lover.
-Misty
It's interesting how you refer to it as having gay desires. I think most CDs do not use that term, because if they have the desires it is while they are dressed and they don't identify as men then, but as women. Do you mind if I ask how you identify your gender? ... If there is a simple answer to that. Lol.
Thank you for saying this.
I don't know that CDs here will like to think of themselves as men, either straight or gay, but the rest of your suggestions for GGs are fantastic!
Well said. :D
Last edited by ReineD; 04-10-2010 at 01:34 AM.
Reine
For me Women all the way. Never even been a little curious about men. I just want to be with my SO dressed ( my fantasy ). May never happen, but I am still happy and love her with all my heart and soul. I would NEVER EVER cheat on her, even if it was with another woman who would let me be dressed up. (That would not happen as my SO is the only one besides this forum that know about my CDing)
I also feel to each is own and no one should have feel strange, bad, or feel that they have to justify their feelings, desires, or fantasies. Be who you are, let yourself feel what it feels. As long as no one gets hurt in any way and it is legal I say go for what you want.
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
:mooning:
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
I'm a man. I have the same problem that all men have and that's a penis. My sexual desires are manifested outwardly in the form of an erection and a lifetime of managing that appendage has definitely hobbled my sense of femininity.
Having said that, I have always felt like an impostor as a man. Almost like I was wearing a "man suit" and all the other boys knew it.
I identify as a man who wishes to be a woman.
-Misty (even my name is a variation of mister)
Misty,
Reine
Sorry for going in a different path here than what the rest of your post went.
I don't necessarily agree that this thread proves anything on how many crossdressers are gay/bi. First take a look at the title, "Crossdressing and dating guys." For those that skim the forum, who is more likely to read this? Those that date guys or at least entertain the possibility. It reminds me of threads like "Are lefthanders more likely to crossdress?" Lefthanders will flock to the thread as it is something to relate to and righthanders move on to the next thread.
I know it has been said on this board before that some people feel that the percent of crossdressers that were either gay or bi was approximately the same as society in general. I would suspect that it is a little higher as crossdressers are already exploring themselves and accepting themselves for who they are. So it seems to make sense that it would then be easier to accept your own feelings of being gay or bi. But the responses here seem swung was in the other direction and I don't feel they can be used to determine which was crossdressers tend to go.
The truth is to me is that we may never really get a good feel on it as it is hard to get a good poll and there are just too many people who have repressed feelings or really just aren't sure.
Thankyou Sue you make a good point about who the title may attract
Or even after a while just afraid to come out and swim against the tide, then we have to remember that this is the Internet where people will sometimes just say anything for the heck of it and for shock value ..........
I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me
[SIZE="2"]In my short 42 year tender on this planet I have learned that there is one absolute in life when it comes to people. That absolute is:..................THAT THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES! We don't all fantisize about men when dressed, nor do we all NOT fantisize about men when dressed, and shocking as this may sound, ready....wait for it...., there are some of us who only sometimes fantisize!!!
If we were all "the same" life would be extremly boring. No not everyone has gone through a phase of curiousity about men, but some have. Of the ones that have not all have acted on it, and not all will for a thousand different reasons. I do not want to be put in a box and labeled. To quote Bob Seger "I'm not a number, dammit I'm a man!" well a man part of the time, I hope we can quit trying to say that we all do ---------- just to make ourselves fill better or normal because we did----------.
Have a lovely day everyone:drink:[/SIZE]
[SIZE="2"]"Tell me why I can't where a mini 'kilt' to work?"[/SIZE][SIZE="3"][/SIZE]
My husband is similar to most of the "lesbians " on the thread . He has never found anything attractive about a man ( including himself sadly ) at all ever. In fact he has slowly come to identify himself as a lesbian woman whether en femme or not and he is always worrying that will drive me away . It won't,, I dont care,, but the L theme is always present in fantasy or reality for him. He is kind of like a permanent tomboy/soft butch or the like.
Like the other posters have said ,, it is amazing how many shades of CD-er's there are.
IG : Knightress Oxide
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