Actually, the OP clarified that--they refered to it as "bedroom playtime", and there was an assumption on her part that it would stay in the bedroom---no explicit agreement between them that it would.
Actually, the OP clarified that--they refered to it as "bedroom playtime", and there was an assumption on her part that it would stay in the bedroom---no explicit agreement between them that it would.
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Originally Posted by MsJanessa
I don't know how much clearer the OP can state there was an agreement between both parties.
Honestly, apart from the obvious lack of communication between the OP and her husband, for me, there is a lack of information in her post to begin with. A few sentences, it's just a bit too clinical (crafted). Especially for a thread started with the sensationistic title of "Betrayed".
Last edited by Rebecca Star; 06-29-2012 at 07:34 PM.
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Please, everyone, please just read all the posts in this thread. It would save an awful lot of arguing:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2886019
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2887132
Her husband minimized the whole thing and led Lola to believe this was just a kinky bedroom thing, when in reality he goes out dressed when she thinks he is at work! Let's stop arguing about this and focus our advice on how Lola and her husband can best deal with this.
Reine
In forty two years of marriage, there never was a time I felt I had to explain, or apologize for, taking a day off at the last minute, without discussion it with anyone other than my employer, I certainly am going to wear whatever I feel like it at home, and alone. And if I want to run out in the middle of the day, I'm a grown up, I don't need anyones permission.
You may need to do this, but not unless I say so, and it must be kept in the bedroom only, and just lingerie, nothing more can be worn, did you marry the man, or adopt him? is he not a grown up.
You have said, there is no agreement, just what you though was an understanding. With you, it's bedroom play, and that's cool, but for him, it's a part of him. He needs to find himself, where does his feeling fit in to this. Just maybe you have driven him to this, because he is allowed no other outlet. Instead of laying down the law, try talking about it, see what his needs are, and what it takes to satisfy at least part of it. And then see if you can fit it into your life, if not, maybe your not right for each other, but if you hold on too tight, you will squeeze him to death! It's said if mommas's not happy, no one is, well it can also be said, if daddy's not happy, he won't stay around long.
It's not about what I want, it's not about what my partner wants, it's about what works for us as a couple, nothing else will work in the long run.
Tina B.
Magic is the art of changing consciousness at will.
Lola
It seems what you have most folks want, a supporting wife.Now with dressing with her at home she may want to not only expierence her in intimacy but now wants her friendship also. (e.g. lets go out shopping,spend time with you outdoors knowing the whole you). Take it slowly and watch yourself to not get carried away.
Thera
I think it would be a head trip to most people to see their spouse going to perform a sex act without their knowledge in public.
Now, that is not what was going on and we all know it, but if a person only knows their partner dresses in terms of bedroom spiciness, and all of a sudden they are fully dressed and going outside - yes, I can see that being a shock. I can see how emotionally it would provoke a lot of feelings. I also think that such a couple could work things through and make it not such a big deal eventually, if there is a lot of open talk between them from here on in. Lola will need to reframe cross dressing from a sexy bedroom thing to an everyday identity thing. Her husband will need to trust her more with what he is doing, instead of being ashamed of his actions and hiding them.
I personally find it concerning that Lola's husband would skip out on work in order to dress up - most employers wouldn't take hookey so lightly, and if Lola's spouse used a vacation day for that - How many does he get for them to use together? I hate seeing the urge to dress force couples apart, and there has got to be a way to balance these things all together.
Lola discovered something that her husband had withheld from her and she is here trying to understand. There's a big jump between, "Honey, I'm a kinky sort of guy so why don't I put on a corset and we can have fun in bed", to "Ooops, I forgot to tell you that I may have gender issues and I also like to wear forms, wig, makeup, total outfits, and go out in public interacting with others as a woman while you believe me to be at work".
He should have discussed this with her long ago.
Reine
Lola, I'm going to take the role of my wife in this discussion. You stated a few items in the bedroom, presumably for bedroom play. That was us decades ago. My wife and I would buy a nightgown or two for me to wear because I truly loved the feel of the nylon fabric. She bought me stockings and garter belts on occasion. She did ask me to not wear the nighties after our child was born and we lived in a one bedroom apartment with the crib in the same room. OK, no problem. I assumed. Then I progressed. I probably misinterpreted her mild acceptance of the bedroom attire for some approval for more. She and I finally realized there was more to me than just wearing a nylon gown when she found I had bought a bra and panties. Enough said. Casual bedroom play does NOT mean automatic acceptance of dressing up totally en femme and hitting the road for a casual night out.
Your hubby needs to take your feelings into consideration. You mentioned in the original post a strong religious belief/affiliation. If that means you fear non acceptance in your religious community, he must take that into consideration. Cross dressing has destroyed many marriages and relationships of all members of the family.
If your husband has the burning desire to express himself outside the bedroom and outside the home, he needs to negotiate with you. That may mean an evening with the kids at grandma's so he can express himself outside the bedroom WITH YOUR APPROVAL. It may mean an overnight trip to the beach or the mountains. It may mean finding a support group. Once the Jeannie is out of the bottle, she generally cannot be stuffed back in. That does not mean Jeannie should be swirling through the neighborhood without your approval.
"Thank you for your kind words. In reviewing most of the posts I realize I didnt do a good job outlining the situation to give a clear picture. Most are right we didnt sit down and say this dress up is only in the bedroom, however, we called it bedroom playtime." - Lola14U
Not to be snarky about all this but the OP later explained the situation--she and her husband did NOT sit down and explicitly say this was strictly for the bedroon---they simply called it bedroom playtime---it looks like they had two different views on it--- The OP did not say her husband promised never to go out dressed--it sounds like that was her assumption.
My original comment was that Lola's reaction would be understandable if she came home and found her husband all tarted up (sky scrapper heels, leather miniskirt, tons of makeup, big hair etc) and headed out the door to the local TG pickup bar or the notell motel for an assignation with an internet pickup. However, if he was hanging around the house dressed or going to the local shopping mall, that's a little different--the first is in fact a violation of the marriage vows and is a betrayal. The second is not---I never heard of a wedding ceremoney that included the vows to love, honor and not to crossdress. That said, it sounds like the problem here has been a lack of communication, not a betrayal of trust.
Last edited by MsJanessa; 06-30-2012 at 07:35 PM.
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It all depends on what his "intent" was and where he was going. It's up to the OP to find out. They need to talk and talk some more. Communication in this case is needed.
Define "normal"
Reine, we have no argument on that, he should have talked it all out, so should she, I see the whole thing as a lack of communication, it's just that I still think, trying to set rules, that don't work for both people, just doesn't work. In the long run you have to find a way for both parties to walk away satisfied, or nothing can stay settled. She has her feeling about it, he has his needs, I hope they are able to work it out, but sometimes it's just not posible. So far I have not heard anything that makes him a bad person. I still don't know where he was going. I do not believe, a man or a women, should get to be a jailer for their mate, and this does not sound like anyone here, has set down rules, that are jointly agreed to. Unless we know he was heading out that door for a sexual encounter, I still think Betrayed is a bit over the top! Did he know he needed permission, it doesn't sound like that it was discussed.
Tina B.
Magic is the art of changing consciousness at will.
I think the problem with expecting a wife to talk things through is that this assumes she knows what there is to talk about - if she's lead to believe that its just a bit of "bedroom play" then that's what she expects it to be. How many wives know the full extent to which crossdressing can go to unless they have either experienced it via their mate or have been searching the internet etc.
In this case, Lola was led to believe it was just bedroom play, it wasnt in her mind to talk things through any further than that because she obviously didnt think there was any more to it than that! Her husband, on the otherhand, must have known it was a lot more than that - IMO he should maybe have opened discussions about it and come clean.
I personally think Lola is justified in being rather annoyed and feeling betrayed - not so much by the actions, they may in fact have been harmless enough, but by virtue of the fact that her husband has decieved her by allowing her to believe his dressing was nothing more than bedroom play.
I agree with SilentPartner and to answer you, Tina:
... I don't see Lola trying to dictate anything. Lola is here (or was here? ... I hope the lack of understanding over her position hasn't scared her away), trying to understand what this is about. She did say she wishes to discuss boundaries which is another way of saying, "Lets start talking about this so we can reach a middle ground". I don't blame her for trying to center herself first to see how she feels about this, before talking to her husband. She's got to start somewhere.
Reine
I sincerely hope that certain posts havent driven Lola away - God knows, its hard enough to fathom some aspects of CD'ing, and when someone comes to a forum that purports to be a place for support and help, I guess that's what they are hoping to find.
Can I explain the betrayal (again)!!!!!
If you indulge in bedroom play with your SO that is exactly what it is. You, as a GG SO are in the place you feel safest and what takes place is intimate and trusting.
This is world's away from telling your partner you are CD. The two are entirely unrelated. I have tried to tell countless cders that trying things in the bedroom and then revealing you cd are two completely different issues. Hence the betrayal.
Also, when both of you work to support your children, taking sneaky days off to go out dressed is not a choice but a serious breach of trust
For Lola's SO to now explain away his stash of clothes (the money could have been spent on childrens' clothes or days out) and the rest of his paraphernalia is really starting at the beginning. This will require months of explanation, and a serious effort on his part to regain his wife's trust.
Truly she has been betrayed because deceit, dishonesty, and distrust have no place in mature relationships. This has nothing to do with her misunderstanding the situation, but a horrible shock that she was deceived into behaving one way in the bedroom so that her husband got vicarious thrills at her expense. How foolish will that make her feel?
Then she has to equip herself with the knowledge of cding whilst holding down a full time job, being ill and looking after her family.
This is yet another warning not to mix lingerie play in the bedroom with cding outside of it as an introduction for your partner.
If you want to be part of an adult relationship then at least behave like one.
Betrayal is far too strong and louded a term to describe this whole situation.
I'd challenge a number of these presumptions. One can claim that the bedroom and the rest of life are separate, but realistically they are not. It takes no great insight to imagine that what a CDr enjoys in the bedroom will also be appealing outside the bedroom. It may come as a bit of a surprise, it may be poor judgement, but its certainly not a betrayal.
The words "deciet, dishonesty and distrust" grossly overstate the alleged transgressions. Surprised and disappointment are reasonable reactions, but I would urge her not to burden the relationship with terms that are so strongly prejudicial. It would be fair to say "I'm disappointed to learn that you dressed outside the bedroom and went out in public without my knowledge. It would be mature to say "These are my concerns about what you're doing" and "How can we work this out, together?"
Wouldn't it be better if we offered suggestions to help this couple improve their relationship, rather than aggravating the conflict needlessly.
I'm going against my better judgment by continuing to engage in a discussion when the OP isn't here to clarify or deny our assumptions (I hate guessing), but in general, there really is a HUGE difference between dressing up for kinky fun in the bedroom and wanting to go out in public looking like a woman, behind a wife's back. The first is harmless play where the wife does not even IMAGINE that her husband "wants" to be a woman, the second indicates much deeper desires that to a spouse who knows nothing about this, can mean that he may have an entirely different gender identity than he had let on.
If Lola had not spent a significant amount of time learning about the full TG spectrum, how could she possibly have made the connection while they were just having kinky fun in the bedroom? I know from personal experience there are men who are not CDers and who get into kink with their wives/gfs, and they would not dream of wearing feminine things just for themselves outside of it.
If Lola's husband led her to understand that his desires were no deeper than this, then he lied to her and I don't blame her for feeling betrayed. And again, if he was passable enough that she didn't recognize him, it's an indication that he's been doing this for some time and his non-disclosure is just as severe as a husband who dresses in hiding and who has never had kinky experiences with his wife in the bedroom.
Gosh, even CDers know the difference between pure kink or fetish and someone who dresses to express something deeper.
Reine
I think a lot of assumptions are usually made by both husband and wife (in this and a whole lot more things, not just about crossdressing!), and those incorrect assumptions wind up leading to the feeling of being lied to, even though it hasn't actually happened. Of course as a crossdresser myself, I don't see it as a betrayal; but I can see how Lola (or any other wife) would. Women (and I guess sometimes men as well, but not as often) gain some part of their own identity by who their mate is. That's nothing new; it may seem a bit backward, as women have made lots of progress in the past 100 years or so in making their own path in the world instead of just becoming 'Mrs' someone. So I can understand well why a woman might not want anyone to know that her husband is a crossdresser, and that is half of what I see is going on here. The other half is of course the fear that the crossdressing isn't simply bedroom play time, but that he may really want to be, or feel that he is, a female. It's a problem from both angles: We (crossdressers) do our best to minimize the 'problem' by not telling our SO's to what extent we feel the need to dress up, exactly because we fear she'll freak out about it, and she'll start on the whole 'You're not the man I married!' tirade, when we know that we haven't changed at all, only her perception of who we are, has. The real cause each of us crossdresses is so rarely known that it's often difficult to tell exactly how things will wind up.
And the problem with knowing the difference between 'pure kink/fetish' or something more, is sometimes it's a bit of both at the moment, because the affected person still doesn't know exactly what they are yet (not to mention, that we are continuously changing as we live, so that may change as well!).
Some causes of crossdressing you've probably never even considered: My TG biography at:http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post1490560
There's an addendum at post # 82 on that thread, too. It's about a ten minute read.
Why don't we understand our desire to dress, behave and feel like a girl? Because from childhood, boys are told that the worst possible thing we can be, is a sissy. This feeling is so ingrained into our psyche, that we will suppress any thoughts that connect us to being or wanting to be feminine, even to the point of creating separate personalities to assign those female feelings into.
It doesn't look as if Lola is coming back, so I guess we can talk about theory.
If you mean by identity, that women need to be with men who identify as men in order to feel feminine, this is not true. Hetero women want to be with men because this is the way they are wired in just the same way that hetero men do not get turned on by other men. If GGs are not hetero, they are lesbian (or bi) and they have no issues being with women.
Women don't want others to know their husbands are CDers for the same reasons that CDers are in closets. It's because of the bias that exists in our society, and the fear they, their husbands, and their children will be ostracized by those in their immediate circles.
First, this is not a tirade, it is real emotions of surprise and fear that emanates from a woman who is in shock that her husband is not who he had presented himself to be. Second, you mention a CDer minimizing things to his wife and this is not OK in a committed relationship. A partner feels lied to when this happens, and she feels betrayed with the knowledge that her husband kept an important part of who he is from her. She feels as if she has been living with a stranger and she wonders what else he is not telling her. And if the husband cannot tell his wife where "things will wind up", how can she live without worry, wondering if this will lead to wanting to live full time after retirement, given both truths, that she is not wired to be attracted to women and there is a degree of bias in our society towards men who live as women.
I'm not saying that no woman can stay the course at all. I'm saying there is a long journey ahead for any wife who did not know about this from the onset, that is fraught with conflicting emotion and redefinition of what is gender and sexual orientation. A GG not only needs to redefine her husband and their relationship, she needs to redefine herself.
Reine
Clearly CDing was a huge thing to him and you were unaware of the full extent of it. And no telling how long he had been dressing and going out. Which was clearly not something [in your mind] you had bargained for. DOES the timeline make a difference? If he had been going out for X days or X years? Do you know WHAT he is/was doing when he goes out dressed? Are you worried about what he MIGHT be doing when he goes out? Those would have to be concerns for any GG. Unless they actually DO go out with their "dressed" mates. The worry/wonder/why factor could easily ruin an otherwise solid Relationship I think.
There ARE CDers here who dress fully and have no desire to ever leave their house. And don't. CDers come in all manner of flavors and varieties. Unless there are other troubling matters in your Relationship, I would make every attempt to try to work this out with him. "Good mates" are hard to find.
try to understand. most of us would never have asked to be this way.. we do the best we can to deal with it and to deal with a world that doesnt "get it" its not at all easy.. .the brain has its own logic.. and as its a sensory thing it can be overwhelming to constantly supress..
In Lola's case she may have had some inklings about her husbands inclinations but in her mind it was apparently just bedroom fun...and maybe he thought so too, at one point in time. What her experience illustrates is the awful risk we as CDrs take when we try to keep any part of ourselves a secret from an SO. first, we are at risk of the unfortunate and unexpected outing...on the incumbent and sometimes mutual shock, shame and embarrassment. Second, we lose the initiative to control the narrative of our lives and to reveal ourselves in a calm, well thought out manner. And finally, the point of Lola's post, we run the risk of damaging or losing the precious commodity of trust. That's something so difficult to recover once lost.It doesn't look as if Lola is coming back, so I guess we can talk about theory.....
I'm not saying that no woman can stay the course at all. I'm saying there is a long journey ahead for any wife who did not know about this from the onset, that is fraught with conflicting emotion and redefinition of what is gender and sexual orientation. A GG not only needs to redefine her husband and their relationship, she needs to redefine herself.
OK... against my internal judgement, but here I go. Lola may or may not come back, but if she does (and you are reading this Lola), there will be a lot to read through and digest!
Some great posts here on all levels. I was all fired up and then some latter posts caught it for me... Betrayal is a big word! If I do not tell my SO about something that I do not understand and cannot put into words is it betrayal? Is learning something about yourself but not being sure what it is or what it may (or may not) become, and fearing that if you talk about it, it will cause an issue that you will not be able to discuss with any sense of meaning... betrayal?
My wife has with-held things from me because she felt it was the right thing to do - for me and the family. So have I... We did it out of love and mutual respect - it hurts - but we must look for the positive intention in people's actions, thoughts and attitudes.
As Kim said... it is about trust. I may not like some of things my wife chooses to do or not do, but I trust her intentions... implicitly.
Kaz xx
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This Woman Within is Flying without Wings
And sometimes an act omission can threaten that trust, you just never know. I agree that betrayal is a strong word, and as are one suggested earlier, we're missing some context that might reflect on the choice of words and the emotions behind them.
Just talk to him about it... He probably likes being enfem and was afraid to share those desires with you. Some open conversation, open mindedness and a little compromise will likely solve everything. That is if he's not cheating on you.
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