"Didn't sign up for this"

[Susan.]

I don't generally agree with the premise of the OP. That being said, I gave my wife lots of time to divorce me should she chose. We even waited several years to have kids. But after more than 30 years she divorced me with CDing being her excuse though she knew right away and could have gotten an annulement had she wanted.

[Diane Maple]

I don't generally agree with the premise of the OP. That being said, I gave my wife lots of time to divorce me should she chose. We even waited several years to have kids. But after more than 30 years she divorced me with CDing being her excuse though she knew right away and could have gotten an annulement had she wanted.

This is interesting. So, she knew from the beginning? Then still used it 30 years later. Sorry to here this. :\

[Meghan]

This subject has been really beaten to death. It seems from numerous threads and postings over the years I've been on this site, the real issue is the consequences of disclosure. Now, that is not limited to a wife finding out about the non disclosed cross-dressing that existed before marriage, but, also cross-dressing that developed after marital vows were exchanged. Consequences also are evident in a marriage when the initially accepting wife, prior to and after exchange of marital vows, becomes non accepting. Half the marriages in the country end in divorce. I research the issue for briefly. The CDC even looks at the issue? Anyway, I'm not going to try to BS the issue. When I did step away from the site before posting I read an interesting short essay by Anne Vitale. I am not good a linkage so I'll leave it to somebody else. Anyway read:

"Notes on Gender Role Transition" by Anne Vitale

I found the essay quite interesting.

Stephanie,

Thank you so much for sharing Anne Vitale's writing. It has probably been at least 10 years since I have read them and there is always something new that I don't remember seeing before. One particular tiny little quote really stood out:

"Because a gender identity crisis often comes in the prime of life, this means coping with a series of difficult trade offs. It's a little like surviving a natural disaster."

It sure is.

Meghan

[new2this]

I think with most things its a question of trust and most people (not just gg's) have a problem being lied to. In the beginng of my relationship I did struggle with my position within the relationship when Dannielle was around, was I still a girlfriend? A friend? But we worked through it and I can understand how it can affect someone who has lived certain roles in a relationship for a long period of time then to have their world shook and to suddenly feel very insecure within a relationship they had found their safehaven previously . It's a new kind of relationship for me and accept all sides of my partner but think if he lied to me, hid it and didn't trust me enough to tell me then it would be a deal breaker and it would have nothing to do with Dannielle but that the trust had been broken.

[Veronica27]

I get tired of people writing about their "rights" while totally ignoring their responsibilities. Using the U. S. Declaration of Independence as a good starting point, it points out that all people should have certain inalienable rights, which include life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Liberty does not mean the freedom to do whatever you want, but rather freedom from outside coercion or compulsion, i.e. from government, along with the assumption of responsibility for your actions. Pursuit of happiness does not imply a guarantee of happiness, but rather the freedom to pursue it. Beyond this basis, there are very few natural rights, but most constitutions spell out a few which follow the primary premise, such as freedom of speech, religion, the press etc. Governments do not grant us any rights, because if they had that power, they could also take them away. What they do is pass laws which are designed to protect citizens from various infringements on their life liberty and pursuit of happiness by either government or other citizens. This is necessary because what one person feels is their right is usually an infringement on what somebody else considers to be their right.

Crossdressing is not an inalienable right, nor is hatred of the crossdressing of others a right. Society, through its laws has decreed that it is legal to crossdress. Therefore, any dispute between a husband and wife over the former's crossdressing is up to agreement between the two. Neither has the right to enforce their wishes over the other. This brings us to responsibility. When two people marry, they are assuming the responsibility to care for and look after the needs of their partner. In a loving relationship, it is logical to conclude that a compromise will emerge that allows the self expression of the husband while respecting the feelings of the wife. Just as the crossdresser can cite many reasons why his crossdressing is healthy, necessary and harmless, so too can the wife cite many reasons why this is totally repugnant to her.

By all means, crossdress within the limitations of your own needs, desires and circumstances, but do so bearing in mind your responsibility to acknowledge the feelings and sensitivities of those who may be affected by our actions, be it our spouse, the woman we encounter in the ladies washroom or anyone else we might encounter.

Veronica

[Silentpartner GG SO]

good post Veronica. you final paragraph is right on the money for me.

[flatlander_48]

One point to remember is that when we allow our feminine side to develop, we are changed. I suspect for most of us the changes in our behavior and perceptions are not big shifts, but I do believe they exist. To that extent, we can be different people from who we were when we married. If we thought about it, we could anticipate all of the other suggested changes. We know that there are illnesses, many life altering and some life threatening, by which we can be effected. If you are in the military and in a hot zone, there is the possibility that you could be injured. It is not uncommon for men to lose their hair, etc.

However, crossdressing is something yet again. I don't think it is something that one would necessarily anticipate. It's too far removed from what we would think the realm of possibility to be. The notion that people knew before they were married happens, but it probably isn't universal. I know in my case it wasn't. I married my first wife at 25. I didn't begin to think about the possibility that I might be gay until I was 42. That was indicative of how deep the suppression was. My first experience with a man was at 49. A couple of years later I began to realize that I didn't see myself as mostly homosexual. This was also about the same time that my first wife and I began to sort out our upcoming separation. I didn't start to do a bit of underdressing until I was 54 and by that time, I was in the process of relocating my first wife. Even though there was overlap chronologically, she never knew. However, I am certain if I had crossdressed some years before and told her, she would not have been able to handle it. She would feel that she "did not sign up for that" and I would be hard pressed to hold it against her.

[Heather Daniels]

This may not be relevant, but I feel the need to say it.
I did not sign up for this either. It was the hand that was dealt to me. I've fought it for a very long time and still do.
I was married before the arrival of the internet and thought I was a freak and the only sicko in the world that did it.
I didnt know any better. I also thought it would go away.... again I didnt know any better. If I can keep this from my loved ones, then I think we are all better off. How can I explain something that even I dont understand?

[Eryn]

This thread hits home big time. My wife is in a wheel chair, with muscular distrophy, and later, breast cancer. She knew about Celeste from very early on, when she was healthier. She was mildly supporting, but would not let me go out, and some really girly things pissed her off. As her desease progressed, to the point she needed constant care, she became overwhelmingly accepting, giving me free reign. We do everthing together, me en femme. So... I've often wondered, is this acceptance free will, or the trade off for her constant care?

Perhaps it is more a realization that, in the fullness of life, having a cross-dressing husband isn't so bad a thing. We all come with our warts and some of them are more easily tolerated when the "balance sheet" is closer to completion.

Even though in some cases the CDer thought it would go away or didn't realize it until they were married the above is common.

Some women would not or could not accept this side of their SO even if they knew in advance. It's just the way it is based on their upbringing, religion or values. I think most women go into marriage based on traditional values and can't be forced to accept the Cding.

It seems contradictory that "traditional values" in this case don't seem to include adherence to the traditional wedding vows. Not that long ago, being divorced was a definite black mark on a person in our society. Now divorce is so common that even the devoutly religious use it as a convenient exit when things aren't going their way.

I think the key point you missed is that we crossdressers who come out after a marriage is consummated, have effectively lied about a part of us to our wife! None of your scenarios cover the lying part....

Having cancer, gaining weight, losing a job or a limb... These are not things you know about in advance. For the most part, crossdressing is. They are completely different things.

The issue for most GGs (not all) is the feelings of being lied to, betrayed and duped by their spouses. I mean, this is your best friend who knows everything about you and vice versa. Now all of a sudden there is this whole femme side you knew nothing about? Were you not livable enough to tell? Do you really respect me if you could hide this? How could you have me share everything with you and keep this from me? Do I even know the real you?

Said this before........... A crossdresser knows he's a crossdresser before he gets married. It's unfair on the wife to be if he doesn't tell her.

This topic keeps coming up and I'll keep trying to clarify that many crossdressers do not have a clear concept of what they are before marriage. This was the case with me and after talking to a number of other CDers I don't think that it is all that uncommon.

I remember that I had an inordinate interest in feminine things from an early age. I did not even consider this interest to be crossdressing because I was also, along with most males in their teens and twenties, intensely interested in females. The clothes, the makeup, and the young women were all fascinating and inaccessible and there was no need to distinguish between them. I thought that this is what every young man was feeling. Yes, there were some experiments with donning articles of clothing and applying makeup, but these were given a thick coating of shame and buried deeply since one does not talk of acts that one considers perverse.

Moving on into my early 30s, I managed to find the love of my life. At this point I doubt that I could have accurately defined the term "crossdresser" let alone identified myself as such. I would no more have talked to my future wife about my minor gender exploration than I would have talked to her about the time I did something really dumb with a gallon of chianti. They just weren't that important in my world-view.

So, we're married, life speeds up, careers blossom, children appear, and there isn't a lot of time left for self-exploration. Yes, that "inordinate interest" remained, but there is plenty of other things to worry about and I could always tell myself that I was being a good husband by helping my wife with her shopping, etc.

A couple of decades pass, children head off to college, career is more stable, more time is available for introspection and, most importantly. the Internet brings information to our fingertips. I have more "me time" to think about those feelings that have been bothering me more and more lately, perhaps due to waning hormones. I also have more self-confidence that allows me to consider things that I would have immediately suppressed in the past.

After some research I'm surprised to find that there are thousands of people out there who have had my experience and who aren't shamed by it. I still don't really understand myself well, but I do realize that this is something that I have to share with my wife. I know the hazard in this after reading stories about wives who left decades-old marriages after similar conversations. Still, there is little choice, since the road I was on (depression, etc.) wasn't healthy for our marriage either. We sat down and had "the talk."

I consider myself very lucky. My wife could have taken the easy path, accused me of lying to her through decades of marriage, and washed her hands of me and the entire situation. Instead, she strove to help me understand my own feelings better. We talked about what I might want to do and she encouraged me to explore ideas that I had not dared to entertain before. Things were a bit crazy at first, what with the Pink Fog rolling in, but the situation has smoothed out and our relationship is stronger and much more enjoyable than ever before.

The bottom line is that many latent CDers, even intelligent and educated ones, can be ignorant of crossdressing for most of their adult lives. They can enter into relationships with no realization that they might have the seeds of crossdressing planted within them. It is insulting and hurtful for people to insist that every married CDer entered into marriage on the basis of a lie.

[Mimi]

For those cross dressers who realize after years that this didn't go away or that some vague feminine clothing urges have got a lot stronger - you know what? Yes. People DO change. And from what I can tell from listening to stories on this board, that conversation will go a lot better if you have a reason, right then, to tell. "Honey, I never told you about this because I had thought this was some teenage thing I grew out of and then I met you, but I liked to wear panties when I was a teen. Lately, I have been feeling an urge to try it again, and also try on other feminine items of clothing. I felt like a freak and I was ashamed of this when I was a kid, but I looked it up on the Internet and now I realize that there are thousands of other straight, productive, happily married men who do this and I don't feel so alone now. I really needed to tell you so I wasn't hiding this from you."

Were you listening in on our conversation all the way from Canada? Your suggested conversation is spot on. While it came as a surprise to me, it also explained so much of Eryn's unhappiness at the time, and I would vastly prefer a happy cross-dressing spouse than a depressed and angry spouse who suppressed his natural urges. And for the record, I did not feel like I had been lied to.

[Barbara Ella]

Lorileah had an excellent thread on TRUST, and how revealing cross dressing is a real trust buster. It changes the total dynamic of male/female partnership, unlike all the others listed by the OP. When revealed early on, there is not as much inherent trust to be rebuilt. When revealed after many years of building up mutual trust, there is an excessive amount of rebuilding to do, and this can very well be too much for the wife to handle, and she must make a decision.

I agree with Eryn. I did not have a clue until I turned 65, after 41 years of marriage. i came out to my wife almost immediately, so she did not feel a lack of trust, just extreme confusion over what happened to her later years of life with her husband. There is no one size fits all, and each individual must make their own conclusion and action plan.

The key is maintaining trust and rebuilding when it is lost

Barbara

[Diana L]

I agree with what heather said totally. We all have to live with the hand that we are dealt.

Diana

[AlexisRaeMoon]

Well said, Eryn. This describes me to a tee. I never told my wife because I always thought I could "beat it." That is some addiction that could be cured if I tried hard enough. Between that and the shame, "telling" was never an option. We realize later how faulty that thinking is, but it's only because of forums like this that we can learn these things. Yes, in a perfect world, we would all have these conversation before marriage, but some us just aren't that strong. I really and truly believed that some day the desire would just fade away...well, we can see where that ended up!

[Chickhe]

...its all negativity! Nobody can predict how their life will be and nobody should feel guilty about what they did or didn't do... you have to consider the whole picture...you didn't act a certain way because the environment was not supportive... you could say your wife didn't sign up for you winning the lottery either...does that mean you can take it all? ...tell her to stop being a kill joy and go shopping together!

[WifeofWrenchette]

I have to agree with you VS fan. I've said those same things myself. The part that used to get to me was the lying/deceit since he knew beforehand and I did not. I found out through his ex-girlfriend of all people not from him 6 months into the relationship. I've gotten over that part, but am am now dealing with his perceived bi-sexuality. Sometimes it's not just the "cross dressing" aspect, but others things that come with it. If it was a simple case of "cross dressing" I wouldn't have any qualms whatsoever.

[VS Fan]

Wow - this thread took on a life of it's own - I was away from the PC all day yesterday after posting and just managed to read all of your replies. So for that, thanks for the lively discussion and points of view.

I fall into the category of "didn't know about this before I was married"... so that's where my perspective comes from, but I do agree that it's different for someone who knew all their lives and potentially deliberately hid it (but even then, I can understand those who "thought it would go away.")

I guess at the end of the day, we're all *people* and unique in our own ways... so whether a marriage can last through ANYTHING is really up to the two individuals involved, I was just trying to examine the distinction between CD'ing and other things that come up in life that are taxing to a marriage in some way. To open up a little bit more - I think my wife was initially devastated by the "news" but came around very quickly after some research on the web and conversation with me and decided she could live with it. We've had sporadic and short conversations over the past 3 years about it, but nothing as serious as the initial ones. So while I live in a mostly DADT situation, I am not afraid to tell her "don't change the laundry over, I have some stuff in there" and she knows what I mean and is ok with it (no negative outward backlash, only mild amusement.)

Anyway, thanks for listening and mulling this over with me.

VS Fan

[Jessica86]

I know when I first met my wife, I shoved this away because I thought it would just go away. I was 19. I thought I would grow out of it or something. Then, after things became serious between her and I and we talked about kids....it was time. I had a lucky break of having a dream about it, and she was staring at me with the "What is wrong with YOU?" look. Well, it seemed good, and I told her I felt like I needed to after NOT doing it for over two years (longest run ever for me.) I had things, sure, and began to get a few more things. Then, she just told me one night to, and all was fine.

One thing I'm not seeing is that some people might be like me. They might see someone so beautiful and special they feel like they can just give it up for them! I know I did! I did a good job for a while, but it came back. That's when I first started looking for help. I didn't realize I was sane, and didn't know what I was getting into. I do like the quote mentioned earlier. I didn't sign up for this life either, but I'm playing the hand I've been dealt. It may be a deuce seven, but I'm hoping it's suited!

[Leslie Langford]

I think part of the problem is that many women think that our crossdressing is some kind of selfish indulgence that we could simply stop if we really put our minds to it. And for us not to do so is wrongly seen as a slap in the face for them, and a case of us ignoring their pleas of "If you really loved me and saw how much this is hurting me, you would stop." Sadly, it is not as straightforward as that, given that being transgendered is at the core of our being and cannot just be willed away.

This type of demand puts us into a "Sophie's Choice" type of situation, and expanding on that analogy, let's use the example of a man who wants to marry a divorced woman with children. And let's assume further that the man doesn't like her (or any other) children, and demands that as a condition of marriage she abandon them to someone else's care and devote her life fully to him. Is that really a fair and reasonable thing to ask of another person, and would the onus not fall on the intransigent partner in this case to make some kind of accommodation to respect her needs in that regard?

[kimdl93]

In America, about 50% of all marriages end in divorce...75% of second marriages. So, regardless of the reasons, many peoples' relationships come to an end....regardless of the vows. I understand that some women simply can't comprehend, accomodate, accept or embrace a partner who is a CD. For whatever reason, some people are able to and others not. CDing is just like any of the other factors you mentioned....its not a choice nor an option for many of use, but its also not a disease or social pathology. Unfortunately, some women may disagree. Such is life.

[Babeba]

aok so lets say you married a nice woman and after a year or so of marriage she tells you she really doesn't like sex and never did and just had sex with you to get you because she was afraid if she told you that you wouldn't marry her?

She knew about it long before the vows and kept it secret because she did not know or suspected you wouldn't accept it.

For most men this would be a deal breaker. Starting a marriage on a lie is never a good way to begin.

Exactly! I see exactly where you are coming from and I agree that is a good analogy.

Edit:

Mimi, I didn't listen I on your conversation but from talking on here with you and Eryn I understood how a person who was TG could come out to their spouse of decades and have it be as okay as possible. I was definitely thinking of you two when I wrote that!

VS fan, I think from the sounds of it your marriage in regards to CDing is solid. I am sure she appreciates the heads-up, and loves many of the things about you that stem from the same place that makes you want to dress up. It's also very sweet that you don't push her out of her comfort zone with trying to get her to participate. In return, she seems as though she makes sure you have time to get those clothes dirty!

[NicoleScott]

any man on here who is justifying his dressing because his wife got fat or got cellulite: THESE THINGS ARE NATURAL PARTS OF AGING.

So I'm gonna eat that birthday cake, and blame the fat on the candles. haha

[Foxglove]

The bottom line is that many latent CDers, even intelligent and educated ones, can be ignorant of crossdressing for most of their adult lives. They can enter into relationships with no realization that they might have the seeds of crossdressing planted within them. It is insulting and hurtful for people to insist that every married CDer entered into marriage on the basis of a lie.

Very good post, Eryn. I'm just quoting this last paragraph because it sums things up for me and quite a few others on this forum. I have to say I do sometimes get tired of hearing the words "deceived", "betrayed", etc., because with a lot of us they're simplistic and wrong.

That said, I have no trouble understanding why CDing could be a deal breaker. A normal heterosexual woman wants a normal heterosexual man, and some can deal with the fact that they haven't got one and some can't. You're made the way you're made. Being honest, I know well that a CDing woman wouldn't be attractive to me in the least, and I'd have to struggle to come to terms with it. Or if I had a good buddy who came out as gay and suggested that we couldn't be friends any more unless we were lovers, that would be a deal breaker.

We're all made the way we're made. And it's up to each of us to determine what our makeup is. (That is not a pun.) If a woman regards CDing as a deal breaker, that I can understand. But let her leave off with the accusations of "lying" and "deceit" and "betrayal" where they're not applicable. There aren't many cispeople who come even close to understanding what we experience, and to write us off as "liars" and "deceitful" sells us short by a lot of miles.

Annabelle

[Gillian Gigs]

I appreciate the comments by both Eryn and Veronica, you both have very valid points. So who didn't figure that their habits would change after they married? I was just like everyone who thought, now I have a wife to play with, I don't need the clothes any more. Guess what, now I had drawers and a closet full of items to try on when I has home alone. Just like it was said, you have kids, build your life and marriage, then 20 years have passed. Did the desires go away...... As the home starts to get more empty, it comes back, in my case with a vengence! That is when I came out to my wife. No running, no divorce talk, just a knowing that I was not going any where and that I still loved her. Did I go off the deep end, no way, we had our compromises, and for the sake of love, I did not push the limits. Today over 15 years later , compromises have changed totally in my favor, to the point of my doing as I choose within the home, but still only within the home setting. I live happily with it and who knows where it may go in the future. All I know is this, "love conquers all", and we both love each other 100 times more today than when we got married. Marriage is an investment, you should be in it for the long haul, and you don't dump your stock, just because there was a down turn in the market place.

[VS Fan]

VS fan, I think from the sounds of it your marriage in regards to CDing is solid. I am sure she appreciates the heads-up, and loves many of the things about you that stem from the same place that makes you want to dress up. It's also very sweet that you don't push her out of her comfort zone with trying to get her to participate. In return, she seems as though she makes sure you have time to get those clothes dirty!

Thank you... she is very good about things like the laundry situation, even doesn't mind me having painted toenails as long as the kids don't see... (although my daughter did "catch" me a few weeks ago... I passed it off as just something I did for fun since they left their stuff out... she's 11 so she bought it and never said another word LOL... she even painted my fingernails a couple weeks later during a daddy/daughter night at home which my wife thought was pretty amusing.)

I actually suggested that she join the forum here when I came out to her, but I think she just did enough research to realize that it was "normal" enough and she could deal with it. It's gotten better over time, so I don't believe that she even really thinks about it much at all on a daily basis...

VS Fan

[sometimes_miss]

Well, it's all in the eye of the beholder what 'they didn't sign up for'. For my ex, the crossdressing was the straw that broke the camel's back so she said. My own thoughts are that I didn't sign up to be married to a nasty, blackmailing, vindictive evil bitch. She had lots of flaws that she conveniently ignored while focusing on what she perceived as mine. Life isn't fair. We all have secrets, and only the people who we keep those secrets from can tell us whether those secrets are important to the relationship or not.