I get it we lied to our SOs. . . but please

[Lorileah]

When you're up to your waist in quicksand, it doesn't do any good to hear "you shouldn't have walked there".

But you should accept the rope that is thrown thrown and/or warn others not to go there...

and again you make the assumption that the SO knows...you don't know they know. Main point here is that they should have the right to be in on the decision early in the relationship. Meh so few here can see the other side, they see what they want to see and they think they know what the SO would want. Think for a minute, if your SO controlled everything assuming they knew what you wanted...

OK doesn't matter, the ground has been covered, the quicksand pit is there and the signs have been posted. I assume you know not to walk there.

[mariehart]

So if your hobby is say...trains and you spend thousands on said trains but you don't tell your wife...its OK?

But that verges on sophistry. It's not trains. I do have a sort of hobby. I don't tell her what I paid for it. Most men know that their women don't get their enthusiasms. My sister in law's husband is into tractors, farm tractors. She has no interest but it results in him and her travelling around the country visiting interesting places and yes occasionally viewing Massey Fergusons. But mainly it's a weekend away. I personally think an interest in farm tractors is more odd than dressing in women's clothes. But hey that's just me.

But you have not asked her. How do you know it isn't boiling under the surface? And if she "knows" then somewhere along the line you did discuss it...right? You are guessing what she thinks again. Sort of like the train engineer who was describing the derailment..."we were going along fine I thought and the the next thing I knew...bang...we were here"
It does take two to compromise I think...two people with ALL the information to allow for a compromise. If only one has the information it isn't fair. It is one taking advantage of the other. But then again, that is how the world in the US and most civilized countries run. One side has the chips the other thinks they have an even playing field.

No I haven't asked her. There's a good reason for that and it's to do with her family background which is highly conservative. It isn't boiling under the surface. What mostly boils with her is her career which is intense because of her position in the hospital she works for. She comes from a family of high achievers, six sisters and two brothers. That is what motivates her.

In this case, we assume, she "knows" and has chosen (her choice) to let it ride as a DADT. Have you ever actually talked about it?

No, she has 'indicated' she doesn't want to go down that road. We both watch a programme called 'Ladyboys' about Thai Ladyboys. We both talk frankly about it and it's clear she knows the subject as I do. She is after all a Medical Scientist. But neither of us cross the line and bring to subject to me.

This is a frustration for me. But I know the woman and I love her enough not to distress her after all her career is what's important and appearance is vital.

[kimdl93]

Gee, did Lori suggest the "model train" straw man to begin with? I don't think so.

I see repeated rationalizations by males who what to cling to the notion that its ok to hide their little hobby from their wives. I understand that a person can withhold information because they are wracked with guilt, confused about one's identity, or clinging to the hope that "it might go away".

I am more troubled by what seems the condescending notion that a person is doing their spouse a favor by hiding information from her, or presuming tacit acceptance because the subject is never formally broached.

[mariehart]

You might presume that the person knows the woman they married and can read the signals. That's not condescending that's understanding.

Several times I read here that the marriage fell apart when CDing was admitted. Really is that true? Is that ALL that was involved? Like the story of the man who admitted to his wife he was Cree Indian because he loved her so much and he was sure she would understood, only to find she barricaded him out of her life. Really? He lived with her all those years and didn't know she hated Indians and that was all that persuaded her to close him out and NOTHING else? He knew her so little that he assumed she would understand?

Marriages fall apart for all sort of reasons. There is never one reason but often there is the famous straw and the camel's back. I worked in aviation and when it comes to accidents there is never one reason, always there is a string of situations leading to the incident. It's the same in life. If a relationship is strong no one problem leads to a split. If it's not, it's an accident waiting to happen.

My point, such as it is. Is that there is no one size fits all solution. I could simply tell my wife tomorrow how it is. In the walled garden of this forum the result would be merely interesting. In my life it could be devastating or it could be positive. I simply don't know. It's a gamble I'm reluctant to take.

[kimdl93]

Marie, if the apocryphal Cree Indian was rejected by his wife because of who he was, did he make a mistake in assuming she would place her knowledge of him above her prejudices? Would he have been wiser to continue to hide his identity, lest she "learn the worst"? What if she accidently came upon proof of his origins?

As you say, accidents of all kind happen and often there is no singular cause. I'd submit that you're gambling with each day that the secret remains hidden. If you fear your wife's prejudices may be as deep as the woman in the story, then you really have only a few choices. First, hope you never make a mistake - no unforeseen circumstances, no omissions or errors in hiding yourself. Second, abandon and suppress your CDing as deeply as your capable of doing and thereby assure there will never be an accidental exposure. Or third, find a way to introduce this part of yourself to your spouse as a calculated risk.

[Marcelle]

Wow . . . talk about a thread polarizing a debate. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

The original point of my thread is that we get it . . . we lied or as some have said, been deceitful, withheld truths and just been all around bad girls . . . go stand in the corner. Each of us has to live with the consequences of that decision (good or bad) and each will have to find peace the best way they can. But that is for us and not the collective moral majority to deal with. Do I regret what I did? Yes. Do ensure my wife knows I love her? Always have and always will.

There is a fundamental difference between sharing your views on this subject with those who have not come out. Specifically "learn from my mistakes" or "here is a suggestion which may help you" or "we are here to support you whatever your decision is" from "you need to come out right now or suffer the consequences because I know best".

The problem with advice is that it can be dangerous to people holding out a hand for help. Like a drowning swimmer they reach out and grab it because they see it as a lifeline, no questions asked or thought given. So if advice givers brow beat someone to come out before they are ready and they do and it goes very bad what do you loose? Nothing. What does that person loose, perhaps everything because it wasn't the correct time to come out.

Here is a hypothetical moral debate for those who think they have all the answers. How would you feel if that person who you shamed to come out early looses everything and then decides to end their life or the lives of others? Chances are you won't know because that person will just cease to exist on this forum. Being somewhat educated on the human psychological condition, don't assume that everyone who gravitates to this forum is psychologically sound. Bad advice regardless of the moral reasoning could be just enough to ruin a person's life and cause a psychotic break. The moral high ground is fine but temper it with wisdom and caution because sometimes thing look very simple from such a high position.

I fail to see what all this "us" "them" gets any of us. Isn't the intent of this forum, support, constructive advice and a mutual good time? Not, trying to make others feel even worse then they already do. If you are one of the few who told your SO right away, take that as a win for yourself, feel good and I only wish I had the courage to do so from the beginning. However, don't use it as a tool to make yourself superior over those who truly want your help and guidance. Use you advice wisely and don't squander it on a personal agenda, that is how people get hurt.

The one post I read which resonates well and perhaps I agree with the most is below.

To tell or not to tell is a highly personal and complex decision with often profound (positive and negative) consequences. Bottom line is that anyone giving advice does not have to live with the consequences . . . We are all intelligent people - take the experience of others into account and make your own decisions as to whether to tell your SO or whether to go out in public.

[AllieSF]

Actually Kim, Marie has already stated that she is taking a calculated risk by not telling. In fact, all of your 3 options are calculated risks. As always stated, I agree that it is better to tell. However, everyone's situation is unique and each person needs to make their own decision and accept whatever consequences may come from that decision. We do that almost everyday when we make a decision to do or not do something, whether speeding, arguing/discussing a sensitive issue with our boss, or telling our SO about something very private to us. From what I remember from the original OP topic, this thread is not about whether one should tell or not, but rather it is to cut the keepers of the secret some slack and that they are not necessarily evil and bad people. I agree with that request.

Some members here like to jump on people that have not yet told, or to jump on the "I told you so" band wagon after they told or got caught and the SO went ballistic. Some like to believe that crossdressing by itself will never be the prime reason to end a relationship after their hobby is revealed or has been found out. In my 6 plus years here I have read a lot of posts where the relationship ended for just that reason.

PS: I need to correct previous posts above. This thread is not about whether it is a lie to not tell your SO. I got caught up in the side topics generated by this thread. Sorry.

[MatildaJ.]

But Jess, every woman knows that men do this.

They don't know the content of the porn, and it may upset them as much as crossdressing.

My point is that this board gets so caught up in arguing over secrecy/lies, when I think the bigger issue in most marriages is how much energy starts going into the crossdressing. Sure, some wives can't even put up with the idea that their husband ever has the desire to CD. But I think most wives could manage to cope with the idea of a CDing husband, if it stayed a minor aspect of their lives. I think many wives put up with husbands underdressing, for instance.

[scarlett]

I'm not at all surprised that views are polarised. I was accused of lying and entrapment when I came out to my wife some 3 years after first forming our partnership. I don't believe I did - just the return of my need/urge to dress after more than 3 years hiatus.

I also understand our wive's views and accept that they have genuine reasons for feeling lied to and deceived.

The book recommended by Reine looks very helpful even now some 15 months post reveal as my wife and I continue to deal with the elephant in the room.

Might be helpful if you have a B&N acoount but I can't see it. I am VERY suspicious of anything from Zondervon being helpful to us.

[Babeba]

But that verges on sophistry. It's not trains. I do have a sort of hobby. I don't tell her what I paid for it. Most men know that their women don't get their enthusiasms. My sister in law's husband is into tractors, farm tractors. She has no interest but it results in him and her travelling around the country visiting interesting places and yes occasionally viewing Massey Fergusons. But mainly it's a weekend away. I personally think an interest in farm tractors is more odd than dressing in women's clothes. But hey that's just me.

I'd say the difference is the tractor crowd has a different sort of audience which women/non participatory family members can get on board with, though - tractor pulls (which is truly one of the big points of vintage tractors) generally have the whole family around, so lots of other kids and wives to associate with. CDing quite often is a solitary sort of hobby rather than a group activity. And having said that, I've noted several GG's here who have gone to group meetings with their partners and found it a good experience.

(Side note, I helped pull apart a WD-40 engine today. Well, I helped manoeuver it in place under the shop winch so someone else could lift off the engine block. Actually, I probably wasn't that much help since I was wearing high heeled boots and I couldn't get much traction. But hey, it got me out of the office for 20 minutes!)

No, she has 'indicated' she doesn't want to go down that road. We both watch a programme called 'Ladyboys' about Thai Ladyboys. We both talk frankly about it and it's clear she knows the subject as I do. She is after all a Medical Scientist. But neither of us cross the line and bring to subject to me.

This is a frustration for me. But I know the woman and I love her enough not to distress her after all her career is what's important and appearance is vital.

I wonder - since your wife is obviously a very driven person, and very intelligent - if she wouldn't appreciate a more active role in the decision making process behind crafting your part of that image. You know your wife much better than we do, of course, and I'm being an armchair quarterback here - but she sounds like the sort of person who may want to have all the facts of a case put in front of her.

The quandary is (and this is why I don't judge those who have not told their long term partners) - although the 'big reveal' (if it happens) goes much better when the spouse is told as opposed to stumbling across it by accident, that bell cannot be unrung. For that reason, the decision to tell or not to tell is not one which can be taken lightly as it will most likely involve a great deal of pain and a feeling of deception.

I desperately hope that anyone who reads this forum who gets a new partner learns from the collective experiences of everyone here that it is best to let a prospective partner know this is in store for you both as soon as you can trust them with the knowledge; if you can't trust them with this, they don't deserve to be a special part of your life; if you can trust them but don't tell them, the omission is gravely disrespectful of their right to know what they are getting into, and to fully share their whole lives with their partners and vice versa. But for those who went into marriage not knowing these things which are easy to find out now? I feel very badly for them and their spouses both and wish them the best possible resolution.

[ReineD]

When you're up to your waist in quicksand, it doesn't do any good to hear "you shouldn't have walked there".

But you should accept the rope that is thrown thrown and/or warn others not to go there...

This is the crux of the argument.

Those who have told their wives with positive results advocate telling. I was told at the very beginning of my relationship and I advocate telling. Like it or not, it IS much easier for a GG partner to accept when she hasn't felt lied to.

But this does not mean that we crucify those who haven't told.

Why are the people who haven't told taking the advice to tell so personally? What's wrong with suggesting that CDers tell their wives/girlfriends early on if their relationships are only starting? A lot of people read these threads and if we can save one marriage from going bust because the wife did not know in the beginning, then that's a good thing.

The baby-boomer generation understandably could not have told at the beginning of their relationships. They did not have the resources that exist today nor did they have the self-awareness. But, in my view there is absolutely no reason for newcomers to the CDing to not disclose it to their partners in the beginning of their relationships. If the girlfriend or fiancée leaves, then a great deal of pain will have been circumvented in the long run.

[Lorileah]

Here is a hypothetical moral debate for those who think they have all the answers. How would you feel if that person who you shamed to come out early looses everything and then decides to end their life or the lives of others?

OK I ask what about the person who keeps it inside, hides for years, gets caught and their wife leaves...with the same result? Which is worse? I have been here a long time. The number of wives who leave when the husband comes out is equal to the ones whose wives leave because they hid it. That is a poor argument.

And no, most don't get it. Otherwise this thread would have been over long ago. Some still argue they are "protecting" the SO...but they don't see that the SO should have the opportunity to decide if they need protection. I believe most the SOs here are adults, capable of making decisions on their own. I cannot think of any new way to try and show the CDs here that they are being selfish. I have related MY experience many many times, but I guess I will once again for those who are new or have chosen to not read it before.

I had a GF for 15 years. We were doppelgangers in so many ways. I outed myself BEFORE we even met in person. I gave her the choice on that. She accepted it. 15 years, one day she felt something "tear" inside her and within 24 hours she was dead. I found her, called the police, sat through the investigation and questions about her family. She had told me she was never married. I took that for what it was and assumed she didn't have children. I didn't ask. The "not married" was a lie, she was married twice. No biggie, a lot of people have been. BUT I told the police she wasn't. She told me she was 5 years older than I was...she was 9...again no biggie. After 21, what difference does that make? But she also had two children. I didn't ask she didn't tell...BUT I told the police she didn't/ Do I look stupid now? Yes I do. Nothing major, there was a reason I am sure this was to be hidden from me. I will never know. But for several months I felt like literally someone punched me in the gut. OK some here will say "so what. She had her secrets" But you know what not knowing did to me? I looked stupid in front of the police. I looked stupid in front of friends. I missed the opportunity to meet her daughter when she was around. She had to sneak and lie whenever her daughter called. I now have to wonder why she thought I should not know. I wasn't allowed to make a decision on that. Would I have left, no, but she didn't even give me the benefit of saying that myself. That hurts. We were equals supposedly, we were partners. But, I guess everyone has a different idea of equals and partners. Some here still believe they have to protect someone who would really have your back if there was a threat.

Truly, I give up. You all want to justify the fact that you don't trust your spouse enough to share because you can read minds. You don't let them choose if they want to spend the 10-15-20 years with you. Years that if you had told them earlier, you either would have made better together OR they, and you, could have moved on. Made a happy life with no secrets and with trust that was deserving. No, you are all correct here, you know exactly what your spouse would say or do...but you don't trust them enough to decide for themselves.

I will in the next thread about this repeat what I said but right now, I don't care one way or another if you all want to not trust your spouse. Look at the GG responses here. Majority...you have undermined their trust. And you wonder why they won't accept you, why they leave you, why they "prefer" not to hear about it? Why after years of you not trusting them...they no longer trust you. I am outta here.

[Jacqueline Winona]

Reine, your point is well-taken. But it presumes that disclosure won't ruin a relationship, too, and that's where I part company with this line of logic. Yes, if CD is a huge part of your life, one where you will or are spending community money on it and several hours per week, your wife should know. But if this is something you do once or twice every six months? One where you're spending less than most people spend on coffee over the course of the year? No, I don't agree that you "must" disclose. Maybe you should, maybe you shouldn't, but telling people they must when doing so creates a a real strong possibility that you're ending a marriage isn't necessarily the best solution(and even if it does survive, the damage could cause both years of suffering). I just don't see this as good advice for everyone , It's the group-think that I personally detest, that we all have to do something because one or two think we should and that there really is only one way. As for the CD's who have an understanding relationship, where the wife truly does not want to know about the dressing, I say respect her wishes. When the SO wants to know, she will ask, it really is that simple. Wives have hobbies and habits too, and some mine has I'm more than happy to remain in the dark about; they make her happy, I don't get them, don't care to participate in, but they give her an outlet and don't harm anyone.

[Marcelle]

And no, most don't get it. Otherwise this thread would have been over long ago.

My point exactly. Most don't get it and most can't see the others pov it is either "my way or the highway" approach. Every person has the right to make their own decisions "right or wrong" and nobody has the right to tell them otherwise. Provide advice, provide support and so forth but don't judge. That's all I am asking.

Isha

[Secret Drawer]

Part of the problem here is that the issue is being over polarized. Either we are outright wrong or right. However, I can honestly say that when I met my wife I thought two things; Now that I have a steady girlfriend I will probably quit crossdressing. The other, My crossdressing is a highly personal weird thing that I do on occasion and doesn't bear mentioning. Once I came to the realization that it did in fact not go away, and that as we began building a life together that at one point or another I should share this "weird habit that I originally thought didn't bear mentioning!" It became a stress point, not because I did not have trust or had some disillusion about my uncanny 6th sense, but as to how to bring something up that has been a deeply held secret, and in no small part, an unknown "why" in my own head for most of, if not all, my life. Its not about secrets and lies! Its about the confusion in our own minds. It took me 12 years into my marriage before I felt some sort of reconciliaton with myself over who I am and how I felt about my CDing. Once I accepted myself, it was a hard but honest conversation that took me out of the closet. She did wonder if I had other secrets, but I actually thought about it and said "none that I can think of?" And she is a smart girl, she understands that telling someone you like to dress like a woman is not easy, and she appreciated being told but SHE understood that it was not an easy thing for me to do! She fundamentallly understood why I kept the secret. If you really reflect on this issue, most women can understand this idea. If they put it back in your face and can't get over it and feel they have been led astray perhaps you need to open up to how hard this thing is to explain even to yourself? A bit of understanding on both sides of the relationship are required!

[Michelle (Oz)]

Might be helpful if you have a B&N acoount but I can't see it. I am VERY suspicious of anything from Zondervon being helpful to us.

In the context of where my wife and I are at and my hope to move beyond an extreme DADT to some modicum of acceptance the concept of this book looked helpful. For $A9.49 and free shipping I reckon it was worth the investment. Should know in a few days.

Even if she sees the book and it provokes a discussion it would be well and truly worth buying.

What's wrong with suggesting that CDers tell their wives/girlfriends early on if their relationships are only starting? A lot of people read these threads and if we can save one marriage from going bust because the wife did not know in the beginning, then that's a good thing.

Reine, your point is well-taken. But it presumes that disclosure won't ruin a relationship, too, and that's where I part company with this line of logic.

My wife said to me quite categorically that she would NOT have formed a relationship if she knew that my CDing would return (after almost 4 years). But the thing is that we have a beautiful loving relationship. A forever love together.

I didn't have a crystal ball to know how much CDing was part of me but let's say I did or my CDing never stopped. The cost of disclosure at the start would be two 90% compatible people would never have found true love.

Then there are the tragic marriage failures from the revelation or at the very least the trauma and heartache. These are very real experiences. The flip side to "saving one marriage" is breaking up others.

Thanks Isha for repeating my position - giving advice is so very easy but we don't have to deal with the consequences.

[Kate Jones]

My wife knew about me dressing before we even met due to a mutual friend.
I didn't know that she knew so I had to go through the whole coming out speech needlessly. Cow!
There's no way I could have a serious relationship without telling my partner.
Life is good I wear what I want when I want.
Its not unknown for her to steal my clothes including my favourite new shoes!
Ps now I think about it she wore my white satin ballet flats when we got married.

[MatildaJ.]

When I met my wife I thought...My crossdressing is a highly personal weird thing that I do on occasion and doesn't bear mentioning.

Exactly. Suppose a wife picks her nose every morning and secretly eats the boogers. It's gross, but it's not harming anyone, and I can see why she might want to keep that secret. Or suppose she exchanges letters once a year with an ex-boyfriend, but they never meet up. Or suppose she fantasizes about her dad while she's in bed with her husband. It's fine with me if she wants to keep that fantasy a secret.

as we began building a life together...[I felt I should] share this "weird habit that I originally thought didn't bear mentioning!"

Indeed. Once you have the desire to share the secret and to feel accepted by your partner, or you want your partner to participate, or you want your partner to give you more time for your secret hobby, then you have to find a good way to tell them. But as long as it's a very minor part of your life, I don't feel it's a moral imperative to reveal everything.

If this is something you do once or twice every six months? One where you're spending less than most people spend on coffee over the course of the year? No, I don't agree that you "must" disclose.

That makes sense to me.

[ReineD]

Jacqueline, if someone puts on panties and a skirt once every three months when the wife is gone, I don't know that I'd call that habitual CDing. I think the need to tell is when the CDing is so frequent that it has become a significant part of a CDer's life.

But maybe we can compare this to points of law. It's difficult to describe and come to a definitive position in a gray zone since motives are so varied ... it's much easier to paint a picture with words when it's black and white: tell or not tell, no matter the degree.

I do believe there are gray zones.

OK ... let's compare this to masturbation. What spouse necessarily tells their partner every single time they do this? I'm guessing few. But, if it becomes frequent to the point where it is on a spouse's mind a lot of the time and they have to purposely and habitually manipulate circumstances so they can masturbate according to their needs, then it's something that is an issue between them. Not the masturbation, but the frequent hiding which does entail a degree of lying or non-disclosure.

[Veronica27]

I may be wrong, but most of the arguing that has been taking place here is not what the original post was referring to. The question of whether to tell or not to tell has no single answer as every situation is different. What I gathered from the topic was that it was a form of a plea to everyone to stop taking a holier than thou attitude toward those types of topics that do not necessarily have a definitive answer. We make a point of telling everyone to treat each other respectfully, and for the most part that happens. However, every once in a while a controversial subject arises, and while attacks are not made directly against other posters, an indirect attack often does take place. This thread has provided an example of that by the insistence by some that not telling is a lie. By association, that is the same as calling the person a liar. I know that the opening post used the word liar, but it came across to me as a caustic means of highlighting the plea that I refer to above.

When I first read the post, and some of the early replies, I noticed that most of those replies were somewhat understanding of the mentality of uncertainty and shame that leads to continued non disclosure. However, they did not address the plea. In my first response, I talked a bit about secrecy and its impact on our lives and how there is no one answer to such questions that will fit every situation. I closed with a reference to what I saw as the point of the thread by using Isha's own reference saying we should not wag our fingers at anyone for their decisions.

Subsequent posts continued to be mostly understanding of the to tell or not to tell dilemma, but by the middle of the second page were beginning to take on a bit more of a tone that it is always better to tell. Fair enough, but they were still not addressing the primary point about the dangers inherent in the insistence on the "this is the right way" approach. I wrote my second reply, pointing out that because of my age, I grew up in a totally different socio-economic environment than we live in today, or even thirty or forty years ago. It's very easy to use hind sight and say that I should have done this differently or that differently. But hind sight tends to overlook all the unique circumstances we were dealing with back then. Should anyone be considered "bad" for the decisions made on such controversial subjects? Because the fact that modern thinking tends to say that such and such is the right approach to a specific topic mean that the old way of thinking was wrong? Sometimes its best and sometimes its not. Are we heading toward eutopia or oblivion? You will get opinions both ways, because that is what it is all about; opinions.

In response to my second post, Lorileah wrote

"Most are doing it (i.e. CDing) on the sly...who sneaks around doing things? People who are doing something wrong, right."

Parenthesis were mine for context.

This use of words such as sly, sneak and wrong, left no doubt as to the intent to portray non disclosure as bad or evil, and elevate the unmentioned disclosure to something more akin to saintliness.

Her next line was:

... Quick aside here, it isn't you must tell PEOPLE...it is you must tell the one you promised to be honest with forever and ever, ok back to the point

In my post "you must tell" was in quotation marks, making it an adjectival phrase describing people who feel they must tell, not that you must tell people. That changes the whole context of what I wrote.

Most of her reply was about TG rights which is not the topic so I will not address them. She concluded by saying:

Yes it is hard to discard misplaced feelings, unteach wrong feelings, relearn something (and admit, this is all learned response.) But we have in the last 80 years done just that. We know that things we were taught are incorrect.

I apologize to Lorileah for highlighting her post, but did so because I felt that it represented what the opening post was attempting to make its plea about. In an ideal world it would be wonderful if we could disclose all to everyone, especially those closest to us. And if we could also come and go as we please without any fear of losing friendships, jobs, respect, loss of limbs or life, our family or anything else because of our crossdressing. But we do not live in a perfect world. Discretion is often the better part of valour. Many of us are able to suppress our personal desires for the greater good of family, or at least develop our own opportunities for discrete occasional indulgences. By all means tell us your story, how you were able to overcome your personal obstacles, what reactions you received from those you loved, what you are doing to maintain your own personal space and peace of mind. Just don't lecture us and write sermons about how we are going to hell for not seeing things your way.

Veronica

[Tina_gm]

My point exactly. Most don't get it and most can't see the others pov it is either "my way or the highway" approach. Every person has the right to make their own decisions "right or wrong" and nobody has the right to tell them otherwise. Provide advice, provide support and so forth but don't judge. That's all I am asking.

Isha

Isha, I think most do get it more than you think. We communicate our thoughts on any matter, but some may not agree with yours or someone elses who agrees with you. They are merely thoughts and opinions. My opinion on this manner is formed by personal experience with my wife, the vast majority of GG's who are SO's and are members here, and of the struggles people have on here when they come out to their wives or GF's after a commitment was formed.

I have actually told my wife many of the "reasons" why I didn't tell her in the beginning. Guess what, it doesn't make the pain she has any less. Yes, she can understand why. She can perhaps feel some sort of relief that I had no master plan to throw her such a wicked curve 3 and a half years into the relationship, 6 months into marriage. But she STILL has to change gears and traverse a path in life she was not expecting or prepared to do. If I had told her, then she would never have had to have done that, and would have been prepared for this different route in life, a path most do not take.

Your title of your thread basically is set up to rationalize what most of us know is wrong. Wrong because lying and or any other way of deceiving our committed partners is simply wrong, regardless of what it is we lie or deceive about. CDing does not get a special pass in my opinion.

[ReineD]

What I gathered from the topic was that it was a form of a plea to everyone to stop taking a holier than thou attitude toward those types of topics that do not necessarily have a definitive answer.

Well, I suppose the holier than thou attitude is in the eye of the beholder. I honestly do not read any judgments into the "you should tell" arguments against those who haven't told.

Isha began this thread shortly after an unfortunate CDer posted the story of her wife having found out by seeing an undeleted picture on the computer. The wife went ballistic and the CDer didn't know if the marriage would survive. Although telling early on or even just telling as opposed to having the wife find out on her own is too late for that CDer, people still write to the masses when they advise against others finding themselves in the same position.

I'm sure that everyone's heart goes out to that CDer who finds herself in that unfortunate position, but what is everyone else supposed to do ... say "good for you and let's hope that other CDers will find themselves in your shoes"?

Just saying.

[Tina_gm]

You are right ReineD at least from me, and I too have not read into a hollier than thou attitude. I do not think someone who has not told early on and may still not have told to be a bad person based on it. I do think it is not the right thing to do though. That is just my opinion. I would like to hope that we can all share our opinions even when it is not an echo chamber of agreement and not automatically feel someone is attacking us or feeling attacked by doing so.

My opinion is based on support for people who are struggling with whether to tell a new GF, or to tell or not tell their wives or SO's. From the post you highlighted from Veronica27, I will disagree about her saying that at least in this topic not having a definitive answer. I believe when it comes to this topic it is among the most definitive. How we tell may not be definitive. But to tell or not, or what happens after not telling once a commitment has been formed. This is very definitive. And what happened to the CDer who was found out, that is a very definitive consequence when it happens. A very common reaction of Wives and SO's when they discover it rather than it being told to them. The common reactions when a wife or SO is told, especially years afterword. I was no different in that I did not tell and the reactions my wife has had are so typical of others who found out later after committing her life to me. So my advice, my opinion and my support is that not telling is wrong, it causes so much hurt and causes difficulties with relationships and marriages. To avoid this pitfall.

[Marcelle]

Wrong because lying and or any other way of deceiving our committed partners is simply wrong, regardless of what it is we lie or deceive about. CDing does not get a special pass in my opinion.

Not saying it deserves a special pass. I am saying that we know it was wrong but there is no need to brow beat people about it. They made their choice (right or wrong) and will have to live with the consequences. How they choose to work through with their wife is their business and not ours.

Isha

[Tina_gm]

It is not our business when not asked, but when people come on here to ask or to comment, then it does become our business, it was literally requested to be our business. I don't remember seeing anywhere (correct me if I am wrong) where someone has come on saying they were having trouble in their relationship due to their wife of SO finding out or they finally came clean, and then have other members saying HA! told ya so, ya got what ya deserved! I have not seen that happen.