Bathroom bills and other laws , discussion thread

[ReineD]

Reine, I agree that a person should use it corresponding with their identity. And even that description falls short for those who are non-binary.

But think about this. If they truly have a non-binary gender ID - neither male nor female - (unless you mean something different than this?), then why would they object to using the bathroom that corresponds to how others see them. If this person does NOT identify as a female (or a male), why would this person insist on using the women's bathroom specifically. They could use the men's room if they are perceived as male. Or the women's room if they are perceived as female, although this is a major feat for a birth male who is not transitioning. Or, if it is distasteful to use the men's room because they also don't identify male, then they could use a gender-neutral bathroom.

But realistically, I'm guessing that most people do identify fundamentally as one or the other gender. If we took a survey of the 4,000 people (who are mostly birth males), who have logged into this forum in the last 3 months, and asked them how they think of themselves when they are naked, I'm guessing all the MtF TSs would say women, and the vast majority of CDers would say men. If a CDer says they are a woman, then this person is not a CDer. And if this person is indeed internally a woman but chooses to live as male and not transition, then they cannot expect others to know how they feel internally, begin to see them as female, and accept them in the women's bathroom (especially in contentious or sensitive areas currently). Still, gender-neutral facilities are always an option.

... and if you are thinking mostly of CDers who identify as women when dressed but men while not dressed, and who expect to be accepted as women in women's bathrooms (in contentious and sensitive areas), it doesn't work that way especially if they have not undertaken the steps that TSs undertake when they transition. Still, how can a fundamental gender ID fluctuate like that. Either a person identifies female, or male, or non-binary (neither). A combination of the two is still not binary (male or female).

Producing any type of documentation is a complete no-no. That was done for the jews in Europe.

Well, we all need to produce documents: driver's licences, registrations, and insurance cards when stopped for traffic violations, passports or green cards when crossing borders, SSNs (which link to databases about us) when we pay taxes, apply for jobs, open bank accounts. IDs when we apply for college, rent apartments, get a library card, cash a check, enter some government buildings, get gym memberships, and proof of age to get under 18 or over 65 discounts at a variety of places.

But again, there is no gender police posted at the door of any bathroom. A transsexual using the appropriate bathroom who encounters issues (which would indeed be a rare occurrence except perhaps in some areas in the few contentious states), would need only provide proof of her identity, just like any one of us who needs to prove who we claim to be when doing any of the things in the above paragraph.

There wasn't a problem until it became a political tool.

I'll agree with you there. But, you will appreciate that it is only in the last generation that people with a non-cis-hetero gender and/or sexuality have come out into the light. And we don't live in a world where everyone has equal ability to accept a fairly new reality in the collective conscience. Right? People have varying deep-seated beliefs about what is right or wrong. And the process of change through education is slow (establishing new laws and having them enforced through the legal process is a form of education) ... especially when we are talking about bringing into public awareness the things that are not clearly visible when just looking at a person naked, and that go against a collective historical perception that our population is comprised of men and women who are into each other. And because we do live in a democratic society, the process of getting everyone to accept a fairly recent discovered reality that is additionally a reality for only a minority, involves making some laws clear that previously didn't account for any gender and sexual variance. In the process, this requires debate especially when it comes to expanding the definition of who should use women's private spaces, just as it took years to define the parameters for what defines "marriage". It would be nice if the debate could be civil, free from purposely inflammatory media input meant to further political goals, but that's a different matter.

Do you think that slavery stopped, women became emancipated, and gay marriages were legally recognized overnight without debate, without enacting specific laws, and without the slow acceptance of pockets in our society about these new realities? And there is still discrimination against women in some areas as there is against African Americans, some people still rail against gay marriage, and abortion and birth control are still being debated.