Bathroom bills and other laws , discussion thread

[PretzelGirl]

But think about this. If they truly have a non-binary gender ID - neither male nor female - (unless you mean something different than this?), then why would they object to using the bathroom that corresponds to how others see them. If this person does NOT identify as a female (or a male), why would this person insist on using the women's bathroom specifically. They could use the men's room if they are perceived as male. Or the women's room if they are perceived as female, although this is a major feat for a birth male who is not transitioning.

Bathrooms and non-binary individuals are an interesting discussion. One of the problems is we tend to think in two ways. One is presentation and the other is documentation. Neither should matter. A person should be able to go where they feel comfortable and safe. We know documentation doesn't work (more later on your other comment) as birth certificates can't always be updated. What everyone else thinks is already broken as women have been run out of the women's room because they didn't look femme enough. Both looking at people and using documentation are about controlling other people. Whenever we head down that road, it is fraught with problems.

Or, if it is distasteful to use the men's room because they also don't identify male, then they could use a gender-neutral bathroom.

Gender neutral restrooms aren't always available. The first offer at work when I came out was for me to do that. I explained to them how I was being held separate (a nice way to say they were discriminating) and they backed off.

But realistically, I'm guessing that most people do identify fundamentally as one or the other gender. If we took a survey of the 4,000 people (who are mostly birth males), who have logged into this forum in the last 3 months, and asked them how they think of themselves when they are naked, I'm guessing all the MtF TSs would say women, and the vast majority of CDers would say men.

I would say that it would be problematic to take a survey at *crossdressers*.com and try to size up the non-binary community. This site basically represents those who are crossdressers, those that may have thought they might be crossdressers, and those that stumbled on this place. It is far from representative of the community.

One of my observations, speculative based on what I see obviously, is that those of us that come out when older, tend to be binary at a higher rate. When we look at our youth, I am seeing a large increase of non-binary identities counter to those of my age. What I take from that is that we waited so long to be ourselves, that there can be an effect of snapping from one extreme to the other. But our youth are getting more encouragement to be themselves and therefore, explore more and can exist in a way that we didn't see before.

So if you did a survey and added age to it, I would absolutely believe that you would see a lot of binary at let's say, over 40. As you went younger, the numbers of non-binary would start increasing at a fair rate.

If a CDer says they are a woman, then this person is not a CDer. And if this person is indeed internally a woman but chooses to live as male and not transition, then they cannot expect others to know how they feel internally, begin to see them as female, and accept them in the women's bathroom (especially in contentious or sensitive areas currently). Still, gender-neutral facilities are always an option.

I am going to kick this can down the road a bit. How someone identifies and if they can identify as a man or woman can be a whole separate discussion. In my mind, it shouldn't matter. No one can see how someone identifies, so by trying to enforce some separation, we would create a problem of people trying to judge other people to determine if they belong.

But again, there is no gender police posted at the door of any bathroom. A transsexual using the appropriate bathroom who encounters issues (which would indeed be a rare occurrence except perhaps in some areas in the few contentious states), would need only provide proof of her identity, just like any one of us who needs to prove who we claim to be when doing any of the things in the above paragraph.

Let's look at what North Carolina is doing with what is referred to as HB2.0. HB2 said you had to use the restroom according to your birth certificate. So there is documentation and it is not appropriate for the transgender community as we know. For one, it doesn't often match us in many ways and we also know that in many states, you can not alter it. So what NC wants to do is create a document where you can be officially declared legal to use the woman's restroom because you had surgery. Why is this problematic?

1. It creates a registry of transgender individuals.
2. Only transgender individuals require this document creating a "separate but equal" standing
3. It outs the transgender person because if a document exists, you may need it someday. So if you have to pull it out, you are trans.
4. The numbers of those who get surgery are low. What about everyone else?

Do you think that slavery stopped, women became emancipated, and gay marriages were legally recognized overnight without debate, without enacting specific laws, and without the slow acceptance of pockets in our society about these new realities? And there is still discrimination against women in some areas as there is against African Americans, some people still rail against gay marriage, and abortion and birth control are still being debated.

I am with you on this. Change doesn't happen quickly. When people of color received legal rights, everyone didn't jump up and shake their hands and pat them on the back. Women entering the workplace didn't get widespread acceptance. This has been true for those who are gay and lesbian (bi is way behind and roughly as stigmatized as transgender individuals). One of my sayings is that Education brings Understanding, Understanding brings Acceptance, and Greater Acceptance brings Social Change. But none of this happens fast. It is very common for legislation to be a leader for this change. It is also about people seeing it more in media where they learn. Finally, it is about getting to actually know someone as once you know someone, it is harder to hate them.

Back to the bathrooms, we are stuck. It wasn't a problem before it became political and now it is. We can't turn back the clock on it. But if we accept anything short of what it should be, we will never win. Once you give ground like that, it is hard to win it back. So we must push through and win it properly for all identities. And the only way to make that truly happen, is a solution that isn't identity based.