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Would that orientation and motivations were always that clear and easy. I DO believe orientation is inborn. That doesn't mean that people aren't confused or conflicted, nor does it mean that it isn't tangled up in other issues like crossdressing. Straighten one out (pun intended) and another resolves, sometimes in an unexpected direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea_GG
Lea
Myself looking in the mirror and seeing a women is fantasy and imagining that iam with a man when dressed is also fantasy.
I really can't explain it, It totally doesn't make any sense to me either. But I guess every person is a little differant, maybe it does work for some.
Myself, I am still the same guy, atracted to the same women. My personality doesn't change, my voice doesn't change. My walk, My taste in food, people, clothing, doesn't change, Just me the way I would prefer to dress.
I admit that I'm bi, but when in drab my desire for male intimacy is practically non existent. I don't hide who or what I am.
Sexual orientation is not related to the clothing you wear. Buck naked, you will still be attracted to whichever sex or sexes you find sensual to you. I believe that a lot of CDers who profess to be "bi when dressed" are only suppressing their true sexuality behind society's conformity.
One other thing that springs to mind, how much of what you see on this forum is just a load of hogwash, how many actually are "bi when dressed" or just living the fantasy of being a woman?
How can someone know what triggers what reactions in another person ? The bisexuality is always there, but such action may but maybe heightened by outside stimuli.
That's kind of the point of fantasy- pretending to be something you're not as a diversion from reality. In that sense, if in the fantasy they are a woman being intimate with a man, for all intents and purposes the fantasy is still of a heterosexual nature- only the roles are inverted from the reality. It wouldn't change the reality of them only having had real-lfe intimacy with women.
Wow, interesting thread! I love all the answers...very insightful. But I probably defer to Karen's remark as being spot-on..... :)
It IS a funny thing, tho, and SweetPea, I have had the same questions. I remember reading Alice in Genderland and being REALLY confused at times! I have tried to honestly assess my own feelings about such matters. I've come to the conclusion that sexual identity and preferences can be, as someone earlier stated, rather fluid..(and no Karen, there is no pun intended! :)
As for me....dressed or not, I am in love with the feminine form....don't want to hold hands with any hairy paws....... :)
Great question Sweetpea as I myself have wondered that. I think I am more confused now. Wish it was more black and white but I'm learning nothing in this world is black and white, why would I assume this to be.
I used to have a fantasy about being with a woman, I'm not attracted to women and I don't think I am lesbian. I never could act on it, but when I found out my BF liked to dress I thought to myself..."self, this IS the woman you have fantasized about." Maybe that is why I could never act out on it before... :) And I consider myself totally straight. Being in a long distance relationship I haven't had the opportunity to see if I would act on it with him/her or not yet.
This one is always a subject that generates a lot of thought and there are good ones above. I have a couple to add.
First, I believe the topic that at least was the final driver to this post was made by an admirer. To each of us, there is no doubt that an admirer would have the goal of gay sex if sex is their goal. Just the dating and and company may be the goal, so I want to be fair. It is said at some admirers are really Crossdressers expressing themselves differently. So it is a different set of dynamics.
But I think the main reason that this subject draws so much discussion is because our language fails to easily address all the variances between gender and sex. And unfortunately, the premise of gay vs straight starts with what gender the two individuals involved are. So if someone is transitioning MTF, when does a relationship with a man go from being gay to straight? What if one of the two feels they are absolutely in the middle? What if one is Intersexed? Are we just going to fallback on presentation? Then what about someone who is androgynous? So then we fall back on the physical body? What about someone fully transitioned who can't afford surgery? Our words fail us. What a mess!
You ARE totally straight SoulSis. A CD male is not physically different from a non CD male. All of the parts and hair and innate masculinity is still there. Enjoy your man. ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by soulsister9432 GG
Now before I get hammered for not taking into account how femmy a sub segment of CD's are, I'm specifically talking about the average semi closeted or closeted CD that makes up the vast majority of the CD population. If the act of putting on women's clothes make you aroused, how are you gonna tell me you're not a man?
The gals that are chiming in and admitting they are indeed bi, or that it's really just a fantasy and they know it, or even that they like to fantasize they are women are to be commended. This is the kind of honest disclosure that helps the CIS women understand the community. It's truly amazing how powerful honesty can be.
We all know that sexuality is fluid, but that doesn't excuse the "magic clothes" assertion. Sure, you may feel more sensual when you're "playing" and thus more likely to have sexier or more adventurous feelings but that's really normal for bisexual people. They are drawn to one side or another depending on how they're feeling for one reason or another. Sometimes I even want to make out with a hot girl if she hits me at the right time, and kissing women is NOT one of my favorite things. If you are sexually fluid than good for you, it's a blast and life is short, but don't freak out the straights by saying your clothes are somehow magic. All that does is make them think that ALL Cd'rs are subject to the gay making clothes. That ANY man will be gay if he puts on a dress. I know THAT ain't true.
Wait, do I understand this, if you fantasize about sex with a man, you are gay? Does that mean if I fantasize about being rich, that will make me a millionaire? Now if you act on that fantasy, well maybe you have a point, but fantasy is just that, even if it is homo erotic. And no I don't have such fantasy's, I'm just here for the clothes.
Tina
Interesting observation. If I accept your premise, then I wonder why a person could be comfortable with being a CD but not comfortable with being gay? It's my opinion that the gay community has achieved a level of acceptance and tolerance in, western culture, that the CD community has not. I'm not trying to make an argument that coming out as gay is easier than coming out as a CD, but I wonder if some CDs think, "Well I may be a CD, but at least I'm not gay."Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
I also wonder what, for many CD's was their first impulse, homoerotic feelings or the desire to crossdress? Does one lead to the other? I know its sort of a chicken/egg argument as to what came first and maybe a little off topic.
In my case, I went to an all boys school until I was 14 years old. Before puberty, I remember having some homoerotic feelings, but then I was around nothing but boys all day. After puberty, no desires. I had opportunities when I was in young adulthood, but to this day I still have no desire to be with a man, dressed or not dressed. So to respond to SweatPea, I agree, either you are or you aren't, otherwise you're in denial or confused.
I think it may only be natural to fantasize about men when you dress and pretend to be a woman and then wonder what it would be like to be a total woman. Often when we start dressing it is about fantasies and then it moves beyond that for some and for others it doesn't. I do think when I started it was the thrill of wearing feminine clothing and then it became a stress escape and eventually
I reached the point where women's clothing feels and looks so much better than men's. I feel sexy when dressed even if I am not. It's all in the mind and each person's mind is different. Some act on their fantasies and many do not. I don't see why people have to be categorized as straight, gay, bi or whatever. People just should do what they want and feel and not be judged by anyone except themselves.
This needs emphasizing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
But I'd take it one step further to say, at least be honest with your SOs too. They deserve to know. Many GGs sense there are barriers when their husbands harbor secret fantasies of being with men, and the GGs need to know they can trust their instincts are they are not imagining things. When the truth is out, then everyone has the opportunity to make appropriate decisions for themselves and their futures, even though the decisions may hurt in the short run.
How true!Quote:
Originally Posted by Badtranny
I don't know why homophobia is rampant. I don't experience it, but then I'm not a guy. Maybe some members here can enlighten us.Quote:
Originally Posted by dela
This is a great question and it's not off topic. It's all tied into the psychology of magical, gay-making clothes, as Melissa aptly puts it.Quote:
Originally Posted by dela
My opinion: if the CDing is autogynephilic, then it came first and the homoerotic fantasies serve to heighten the experience. And if the autogynephilia is severe enough, I believe an individual might well convince himself that he does prefer sex with men. The thing is, an autogynephilic's true sexual preference, the thing that sends him to the moon is the image of himself as a woman more than being with a woman or a man, and even though the act of having sex with a guy (vs. a girl) may better fit in with his inner image, he does rob himself of knowing the true highs of a sexual experience with someone whom we are intimately, emotionally connected to. You know ... the difference between making love vs. having sex.
If there is an element of gender identity involved (and no matter what anyone says, I think that opposite-sex attraction can be tied to gender identity, at least it is for the 90% cis population), then I'm guessing the sexual attraction, even if it is suppressed, and the need to express other than birth gender are both there from the beginning.
This isn't just a crossdresser thing; I have profiles, both as my femme self and as a couple with my wife (with me listed as her TG/male partner), on various alternative lifestyle sites. They all make it clear that I am male.
99.999% of the unsolicited emails I get from those sites are from "straight" men who want to do things to me.
Lots of self-delusion out there.
I admit , I'm at least bi curious but the idea of being with a man outside of being dressed is completely unappealing to me . Maybe it's just a fetish thing ,who knows ? Sexuality is a tricky thing.
It's really simple, actually. Some of us are just sexual, with no overriding sense of being gay or hetero or bi or whatever. Someone mentioned being sexually fluid, and I guess that comes close to characterizing the sexuality I feel and desire to express. GGs will always be my first love and strongest sexual attraction, but I also have a very strong feminine streak (and all that goes with it) myself, so the lines are very blurry. (In fact, I really don't see or feel the lines at all.) I can be the sexual aggressor is ways normally associated with males of the species, but I also respond passionately to aggression from either gender that taps into my feminine psyche, and at the risk of being indelicate, in that role I find both genders sexually desirable.
But here is one fundamental difference between me and a gay guy: I do not and cannot relate to being desirable as a man to another man. In other words, gays tend to be attracted to each other because of the shared masculinity, but that dynamic isn't me at all. Whether a guy is attracted to me because of or in spite of my femininity, that's the way it's gonna be or we might as well get out the dominoes.
When it comes to GGs, however, I seem able to respond and function with either gender association ... as long as she's not expecting some super macho hunk. We have all had so much social conditioning it's difficult for some people to get past the gender cubbyholes, but for me, I just flat don't understand why it's so difficult to understand a you-know-what in a skirt. To me, it's the most natural thing in the world, an iconic expression of the gender-bender that I am.
Hi SweetPea,
If you think it's mind boggling try wearing my boxer shorts. (Sorry if that sounds mean, it isn't meant to be and hopefully you'll understand more as you read this post)
A fantasy is just that. I think too many people try reading far too much into fantasies. I also think too many people are attempting to define sexual attraction and identity with overly simplistic terms.
I am a sraight male. Which is to say I continue considering myself a straight male but am coming to the realisation that I am far more complex than that one, simple, word...straight...can define me. Married 17 years and been with her for 20 years, although our marriage is failing because of reasons far more complex than why I am a member of this forum. Never had any attraction to, nor sexual experiences with, men. I admit to having a fantasy several years ago, and shared this with my wife and she enjoyed it too, where my wife would bring a man home and teach me how to orally pleasure him. As I said, a simple fantasy and nothing more.
Over the last year my sexual attraction has become fluid. When dressed as male I am attracted to females. While dressed as female I am attracted to males. I know it's not the "magic clothes" but rather something inside of me that causes the divergent sexual attractions. I have never acted upon this attraction while dressed. My wife does not know any of this.
I'm scared.
I'm confused.
I'm in therepy.
I don't know who the f--k I am.
Straight...bi...gay are all labels failing to define me.
I'm so deep in the closet if I take one more step back I'll be in Narnia.
I hope this helps you even a little bit.
I totally agree, SweetPea. Lots of CD's can't bring themselves to accept that they are bisexual, sort of self-homophobic. From my experiences over many years of meeting a ton of people in support groups and the TG social scene, my opinion is that most MTF girls are at least potentially bisexual. Some are totally straight, but most aren't, IMO.
Carol
I believe this is an artificial question. To say "either a man is straight or not" presumes there is such a thing as straight adn then imposes a polarised dichotomy on that concept. I think straight is a fiction created by our over-religiously-dominated society. Sexual preference is on a sliding scale, just as gender identity is on a sliding scale. That's the easy bit. Here's the hard bit: each of us is not a point on the scale, but a range. Someone who's never had any sexual experiences with a person of the same sex can adequately label themselves as straight (it's just a label, it means nothing) even if they have had homoerotic fantasies, while another in exactly the same boat can label themselves as bi- or pan- or whatever they like.
We're supposed to be shrugging off the slavery of labels in this forum, aren't we?
I think the area which I know confuses me the most is when some say "when I drab I am attracted to females but when I'm dress I am attracted to males". Like one one said earlier "magical clothes". I would like a set of magical clothes please. Probably a maid uniform so I will want to clean me house and enjoy doing it :)
Either you are attracted to men or you arnt. Clothes or no clothes. It's not like a gay or even bi person goes "ok today I'm wearing brown shoes so I'm attracted to just women today and men just turn me off"
Bi curious is a good word to be used. Cause it's different from bi since pol who define themselves as bi know that they enjoy both genders as to bi curious they are unsure if they will enjoy it or not but they entertain the idea.
Then what gets me is the ppl who talk about these "fantasies" but who are in relationships and say "I want to be with a man BUT I'm married " or "but my wife doesn't know. The Internet is a funny thing cause it does not keep your secrets no matter how careful you try to be.. The day could come that your wife just happens to stumble upon the posts and notices you and she ends up devistated. But it's all good cause you only want to be with men when dressed which will ease her mind...
I know there are questions that a lot get asked when they tell friends or loved ones they are a CDer. A couple are "do u want to be a woman now?". And the other "are you gay?". Yet a lot when replying to posts will say "make sure you let them know your not gay and not dll CDer are gay" (which is true not all CDer are gay). But how do we just jump to that conclusion about someone else when quite a select few on here talk about being with men.. Just curious and this was all jmo and no hard feelings Pls from my statements.
try swaping this:Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetPea_GG
"when I drab I am attracted to females but when I'm dress I am attracted to males"
with this:
"when I'm drab I am attracted to females like always but its easier push those bi thoughts further back and completely out of my mind, but when I'm dressed I am attracted to males too because now those thoughts don't seem so important to push back. "
I think it will help you understand better.
If you do find the magic maids uniform that makes one enjoy housework,,,,, BURN IT, ITS EVIL!! :D
SweetPea,
I think you're having difficulty because you're attempting to apply narrowly defined labels upon someone. Either you're gay or not. Either you're bi or not. If bi-curious works for you than stick with it. Some people cannot be labeled because professional psychologists have, so far, failed to come up with a new definition for what maybe considered a new sexual identification.
It may just be that growing up in a black and white world you end up forced to wrap your own feelings around society's standard and they end up being distorted.
Perhaps the only thing anyone can do is be honest with your SO about your feelings from the start.
If you want to pick apart a mind distorted by repression I'll offer mine.
I consider myself bisexual.
My attraction to males is 99% in the dream world where 99% of my dreams are me with men.
In the awake world I find very few men attractive, but more women catch my eye.
But that has nothing to do with CD at all, thinking about getting dressed does give a physical reaction but that's not why I'm interested in it.
Maybe people are being forced into thinking they have to be linked, or maybe the act loosens their inhibitions and allows them to find males physically attractive.
- Broken brain #1,566,2104 signing out