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None of that is relevant to the fact that the OP and her husband had an agreement that the cross-dressing stayed in the bedroom and the husband betrayed the agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raquel June
Give it up Lori, Raquel is determined to blame the OP for the fact that her husband broke his agreement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Actually, the OP clarified that--they refered to it as "bedroom playtime", and there was an assumption on her part that it would stay in the bedroom---no explicit agreement between them that it would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsJanessa
I don't know how much clearer the OP can state there was an agreement between both parties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lola14U
Honestly, apart from the obvious lack of communication between the OP and her husband, for me, there is a lack of information in her post to begin with. A few sentences, it's just a bit too clinical (crafted). Especially for a thread started with the sensationistic title of "Betrayed".
Please, everyone, please just read all the posts in this thread. It would save an awful lot of arguing:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2886019
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...=1#post2887132
Her husband minimized the whole thing and led Lola to believe this was just a kinky bedroom thing, when in reality he goes out dressed when she thinks he is at work! Let's stop arguing about this and focus our advice on how Lola and her husband can best deal with this.
In forty two years of marriage, there never was a time I felt I had to explain, or apologize for, taking a day off at the last minute, without discussion it with anyone other than my employer, I certainly am going to wear whatever I feel like it at home, and alone. And if I want to run out in the middle of the day, I'm a grown up, I don't need anyones permission.
You may need to do this, but not unless I say so, and it must be kept in the bedroom only, and just lingerie, nothing more can be worn, did you marry the man, or adopt him? is he not a grown up.
You have said, there is no agreement, just what you though was an understanding. With you, it's bedroom play, and that's cool, but for him, it's a part of him. He needs to find himself, where does his feeling fit in to this. Just maybe you have driven him to this, because he is allowed no other outlet. Instead of laying down the law, try talking about it, see what his needs are, and what it takes to satisfy at least part of it. And then see if you can fit it into your life, if not, maybe your not right for each other, but if you hold on too tight, you will squeeze him to death! It's said if mommas's not happy, no one is, well it can also be said, if daddy's not happy, he won't stay around long.
It's not about what I want, it's not about what my partner wants, it's about what works for us as a couple, nothing else will work in the long run.
Tina B.
LolaQuote:
Originally Posted by Lola14U
It seems what you have most folks want, a supporting wife.Now with dressing with her at home she may want to not only expierence her in intimacy but now wants her friendship also. (e.g. lets go out shopping,spend time with you outdoors knowing the whole you). Take it slowly and watch yourself to not get carried away.
Thera
I think it would be a head trip to most people to see their spouse going to perform a sex act without their knowledge in public.
Now, that is not what was going on and we all know it, but if a person only knows their partner dresses in terms of bedroom spiciness, and all of a sudden they are fully dressed and going outside - yes, I can see that being a shock. I can see how emotionally it would provoke a lot of feelings. I also think that such a couple could work things through and make it not such a big deal eventually, if there is a lot of open talk between them from here on in. Lola will need to reframe cross dressing from a sexy bedroom thing to an everyday identity thing. Her husband will need to trust her more with what he is doing, instead of being ashamed of his actions and hiding them.
I personally find it concerning that Lola's husband would skip out on work in order to dress up - most employers wouldn't take hookey so lightly, and if Lola's spouse used a vacation day for that - How many does he get for them to use together? I hate seeing the urge to dress force couples apart, and there has got to be a way to balance these things all together.
Lola discovered something that her husband had withheld from her and she is here trying to understand. There's a big jump between, "Honey, I'm a kinky sort of guy so why don't I put on a corset and we can have fun in bed", to "Ooops, I forgot to tell you that I may have gender issues and I also like to wear forms, wig, makeup, total outfits, and go out in public interacting with others as a woman while you believe me to be at work".Quote:
Originally Posted by Tina B.
He should have discussed this with her long ago.
Lola, I'm going to take the role of my wife in this discussion. You stated a few items in the bedroom, presumably for bedroom play. That was us decades ago. My wife and I would buy a nightgown or two for me to wear because I truly loved the feel of the nylon fabric. She bought me stockings and garter belts on occasion. She did ask me to not wear the nighties after our child was born and we lived in a one bedroom apartment with the crib in the same room. OK, no problem. I assumed. Then I progressed. I probably misinterpreted her mild acceptance of the bedroom attire for some approval for more. She and I finally realized there was more to me than just wearing a nylon gown when she found I had bought a bra and panties. Enough said. Casual bedroom play does NOT mean automatic acceptance of dressing up totally en femme and hitting the road for a casual night out.
Your hubby needs to take your feelings into consideration. You mentioned in the original post a strong religious belief/affiliation. If that means you fear non acceptance in your religious community, he must take that into consideration. Cross dressing has destroyed many marriages and relationships of all members of the family.
If your husband has the burning desire to express himself outside the bedroom and outside the home, he needs to negotiate with you. That may mean an evening with the kids at grandma's so he can express himself outside the bedroom WITH YOUR APPROVAL. It may mean an overnight trip to the beach or the mountains. It may mean finding a support group. Once the Jeannie is out of the bottle, she generally cannot be stuffed back in. That does not mean Jeannie should be swirling through the neighborhood without your approval.
"Thank you for your kind words. In reviewing most of the posts I realize I didnt do a good job outlining the situation to give a clear picture. Most are right we didnt sit down and say this dress up is only in the bedroom, however, we called it bedroom playtime." - Lola14UQuote:
Originally Posted by Rebecca Star
Not to be snarky about all this but the OP later explained the situation--she and her husband did NOT sit down and explicitly say this was strictly for the bedroon---they simply called it bedroom playtime---it looks like they had two different views on it--- The OP did not say her husband promised never to go out dressed--it sounds like that was her assumption.
My original comment was that Lola's reaction would be understandable if she came home and found her husband all tarted up (sky scrapper heels, leather miniskirt, tons of makeup, big hair etc) and headed out the door to the local TG pickup bar or the notell motel for an assignation with an internet pickup. However, if he was hanging around the house dressed or going to the local shopping mall, that's a little different--the first is in fact a violation of the marriage vows and is a betrayal. The second is not---I never heard of a wedding ceremoney that included the vows to love, honor and not to crossdress. That said, it sounds like the problem here has been a lack of communication, not a betrayal of trust.
It all depends on what his "intent" was and where he was going. It's up to the OP to find out. They need to talk and talk some more. Communication in this case is needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by MsJanessa
Reine, we have no argument on that, he should have talked it all out, so should she, I see the whole thing as a lack of communication, it's just that I still think, trying to set rules, that don't work for both people, just doesn't work. In the long run you have to find a way for both parties to walk away satisfied, or nothing can stay settled. She has her feeling about it, he has his needs, I hope they are able to work it out, but sometimes it's just not posible. So far I have not heard anything that makes him a bad person. I still don't know where he was going. I do not believe, a man or a women, should get to be a jailer for their mate, and this does not sound like anyone here, has set down rules, that are jointly agreed to. Unless we know he was heading out that door for a sexual encounter, I still think Betrayed is a bit over the top! Did he know he needed permission, it doesn't sound like that it was discussed.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Tina B.
I think the problem with expecting a wife to talk things through is that this assumes she knows what there is to talk about - if she's lead to believe that its just a bit of "bedroom play" then that's what she expects it to be. How many wives know the full extent to which crossdressing can go to unless they have either experienced it via their mate or have been searching the internet etc.
In this case, Lola was led to believe it was just bedroom play, it wasnt in her mind to talk things through any further than that because she obviously didnt think there was any more to it than that! Her husband, on the otherhand, must have known it was a lot more than that - IMO he should maybe have opened discussions about it and come clean.
I personally think Lola is justified in being rather annoyed and feeling betrayed - not so much by the actions, they may in fact have been harmless enough, but by virtue of the fact that her husband has decieved her by allowing her to believe his dressing was nothing more than bedroom play.
I agree with SilentPartner and to answer you, Tina:
... I don't see Lola trying to dictate anything. Lola is here (or was here? ... I hope the lack of understanding over her position hasn't scared her away), trying to understand what this is about. She did say she wishes to discuss boundaries which is another way of saying, "Lets start talking about this so we can reach a middle ground". I don't blame her for trying to center herself first to see how she feels about this, before talking to her husband. She's got to start somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tina B.
I sincerely hope that certain posts havent driven Lola away - God knows, its hard enough to fathom some aspects of CD'ing, and when someone comes to a forum that purports to be a place for support and help, I guess that's what they are hoping to find.
Can I explain the betrayal (again)!!!!!
If you indulge in bedroom play with your SO that is exactly what it is. You, as a GG SO are in the place you feel safest and what takes place is intimate and trusting.
This is world's away from telling your partner you are CD. The two are entirely unrelated. I have tried to tell countless cders that trying things in the bedroom and then revealing you cd are two completely different issues. Hence the betrayal.
Also, when both of you work to support your children, taking sneaky days off to go out dressed is not a choice but a serious breach of trust
For Lola's SO to now explain away his stash of clothes (the money could have been spent on childrens' clothes or days out) and the rest of his paraphernalia is really starting at the beginning. This will require months of explanation, and a serious effort on his part to regain his wife's trust.
Truly she has been betrayed because deceit, dishonesty, and distrust have no place in mature relationships. This has nothing to do with her misunderstanding the situation, but a horrible shock that she was deceived into behaving one way in the bedroom so that her husband got vicarious thrills at her expense. How foolish will that make her feel?
Then she has to equip herself with the knowledge of cding whilst holding down a full time job, being ill and looking after her family.
This is yet another warning not to mix lingerie play in the bedroom with cding outside of it as an introduction for your partner.
If you want to be part of an adult relationship then at least behave like one.
Betrayal is far too strong and louded a term to describe this whole situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Allsteamedup
I'd challenge a number of these presumptions. One can claim that the bedroom and the rest of life are separate, but realistically they are not. It takes no great insight to imagine that what a CDr enjoys in the bedroom will also be appealing outside the bedroom. It may come as a bit of a surprise, it may be poor judgement, but its certainly not a betrayal.
The words "deciet, dishonesty and distrust" grossly overstate the alleged transgressions. Surprised and disappointment are reasonable reactions, but I would urge her not to burden the relationship with terms that are so strongly prejudicial. It would be fair to say "I'm disappointed to learn that you dressed outside the bedroom and went out in public without my knowledge. It would be mature to say "These are my concerns about what you're doing" and "How can we work this out, together?"
Wouldn't it be better if we offered suggestions to help this couple improve their relationship, rather than aggravating the conflict needlessly.
I'm going against my better judgment by continuing to engage in a discussion when the OP isn't here to clarify or deny our assumptions (I hate guessing), but in general, there really is a HUGE difference between dressing up for kinky fun in the bedroom and wanting to go out in public looking like a woman, behind a wife's back. The first is harmless play where the wife does not even IMAGINE that her husband "wants" to be a woman, the second indicates much deeper desires that to a spouse who knows nothing about this, can mean that he may have an entirely different gender identity than he had let on.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimdl93
If Lola had not spent a significant amount of time learning about the full TG spectrum, how could she possibly have made the connection while they were just having kinky fun in the bedroom? I know from personal experience there are men who are not CDers and who get into kink with their wives/gfs, and they would not dream of wearing feminine things just for themselves outside of it.
If Lola's husband led her to understand that his desires were no deeper than this, then he lied to her and I don't blame her for feeling betrayed. And again, if he was passable enough that she didn't recognize him, it's an indication that he's been doing this for some time and his non-disclosure is just as severe as a husband who dresses in hiding and who has never had kinky experiences with his wife in the bedroom.
Gosh, even CDers know the difference between pure kink or fetish and someone who dresses to express something deeper.
I think a lot of assumptions are usually made by both husband and wife (in this and a whole lot more things, not just about crossdressing!), and those incorrect assumptions wind up leading to the feeling of being lied to, even though it hasn't actually happened. Of course as a crossdresser myself, I don't see it as a betrayal; but I can see how Lola (or any other wife) would. Women (and I guess sometimes men as well, but not as often) gain some part of their own identity by who their mate is. That's nothing new; it may seem a bit backward, as women have made lots of progress in the past 100 years or so in making their own path in the world instead of just becoming 'Mrs' someone. So I can understand well why a woman might not want anyone to know that her husband is a crossdresser, and that is half of what I see is going on here. The other half is of course the fear that the crossdressing isn't simply bedroom play time, but that he may really want to be, or feel that he is, a female. It's a problem from both angles: We (crossdressers) do our best to minimize the 'problem' by not telling our SO's to what extent we feel the need to dress up, exactly because we fear she'll freak out about it, and she'll start on the whole 'You're not the man I married!' tirade, when we know that we haven't changed at all, only her perception of who we are, has. The real cause each of us crossdresses is so rarely known that it's often difficult to tell exactly how things will wind up.
And the problem with knowing the difference between 'pure kink/fetish' or something more, is sometimes it's a bit of both at the moment, because the affected person still doesn't know exactly what they are yet (not to mention, that we are continuously changing as we live, so that may change as well!).
It doesn't look as if Lola is coming back, so I guess we can talk about theory. :)
If you mean by identity, that women need to be with men who identify as men in order to feel feminine, this is not true. Hetero women want to be with men because this is the way they are wired in just the same way that hetero men do not get turned on by other men. If GGs are not hetero, they are lesbian (or bi) and they have no issues being with women. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by sometimes_miss
Women don't want others to know their husbands are CDers for the same reasons that CDers are in closets. It's because of the bias that exists in our society, and the fear they, their husbands, and their children will be ostracized by those in their immediate circles.Quote:
Originally Posted by sometimes_miss
First, this is not a tirade, it is real emotions of surprise and fear that emanates from a woman who is in shock that her husband is not who he had presented himself to be. Second, you mention a CDer minimizing things to his wife and this is not OK in a committed relationship. A partner feels lied to when this happens, and she feels betrayed with the knowledge that her husband kept an important part of who he is from her. She feels as if she has been living with a stranger and she wonders what else he is not telling her. And if the husband cannot tell his wife where "things will wind up", how can she live without worry, wondering if this will lead to wanting to live full time after retirement, given both truths, that she is not wired to be attracted to women and there is a degree of bias in our society towards men who live as women.Quote:
Originally Posted by sometimes_miss
I'm not saying that no woman can stay the course at all. I'm saying there is a long journey ahead for any wife who did not know about this from the onset, that is fraught with conflicting emotion and redefinition of what is gender and sexual orientation. A GG not only needs to redefine her husband and their relationship, she needs to redefine herself.
Clearly CDing was a huge thing to him and you were unaware of the full extent of it. And no telling how long he had been dressing and going out. Which was clearly not something [in your mind] you had bargained for. DOES the timeline make a difference? If he had been going out for X days or X years? Do you know WHAT he is/was doing when he goes out dressed? Are you worried about what he MIGHT be doing when he goes out? Those would have to be concerns for any GG. Unless they actually DO go out with their "dressed" mates. The worry/wonder/why factor could easily ruin an otherwise solid Relationship I think.
There ARE CDers here who dress fully and have no desire to ever leave their house. And don't. CDers come in all manner of flavors and varieties. Unless there are other troubling matters in your Relationship, I would make every attempt to try to work this out with him. "Good mates" are hard to find.
try to understand. most of us would never have asked to be this way.. we do the best we can to deal with it and to deal with a world that doesnt "get it" its not at all easy.. .the brain has its own logic.. and as its a sensory thing it can be overwhelming to constantly supress..
In Lola's case she may have had some inklings about her husbands inclinations but in her mind it was apparently just bedroom fun...and maybe he thought so too, at one point in time. What her experience illustrates is the awful risk we as CDrs take when we try to keep any part of ourselves a secret from an SO. first, we are at risk of the unfortunate and unexpected outing...on the incumbent and sometimes mutual shock, shame and embarrassment. Second, we lose the initiative to control the narrative of our lives and to reveal ourselves in a calm, well thought out manner. And finally, the point of Lola's post, we run the risk of damaging or losing the precious commodity of trust. That's something so difficult to recover once lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
OK... against my internal judgement, but here I go. Lola may or may not come back, but if she does (and you are reading this Lola), there will be a lot to read through and digest!
Some great posts here on all levels. I was all fired up and then some latter posts caught it for me... Betrayal is a big word! If I do not tell my SO about something that I do not understand and cannot put into words is it betrayal? Is learning something about yourself but not being sure what it is or what it may (or may not) become, and fearing that if you talk about it, it will cause an issue that you will not be able to discuss with any sense of meaning... betrayal?
My wife has with-held things from me because she felt it was the right thing to do - for me and the family. So have I... We did it out of love and mutual respect - it hurts - but we must look for the positive intention in people's actions, thoughts and attitudes.
As Kim said... it is about trust. I may not like some of things my wife chooses to do or not do, but I trust her intentions... implicitly.
And sometimes an act omission can threaten that trust, you just never know. I agree that betrayal is a strong word, and as are one suggested earlier, we're missing some context that might reflect on the choice of words and the emotions behind them.
Just talk to him about it... He probably likes being enfem and was afraid to share those desires with you. Some open conversation, open mindedness and a little compromise will likely solve everything. That is if he's not cheating on you.
Thank you for all your comments. There is a lot of information for me to digest and understand. I felt betrayed as I was not told the extent of his CDing---didnt have a clue. I know now a days lies and dishonestly may not seem like much, but for me it was. Trust is big for me. Maybe I should have titled it... Dishonesty-- to eliminate those who provided feedback that it was too strong of a word. I feel the discription was appropriate for me and am comfortable with not every one agreeing. The point of the issue is I was completely blindsided and had no way of knowing I needed to set these boundaries as I didnt know the issue existed. But I am trying to learn, understand and accept the best I can. I dont see this happening over night and have found this site extremely helpful! Thank you all for your comments and insight-
Thank you for your support. I hope to apply for FAB as it seems like that might be a good place for me to find support.
Bullseye! Thank you for your post and your support!
At this point I am not trying to blame anyone...that was never my goal... I am simply trying to understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rianna Humble
It did somewhat ...but everyone has a right to their opinion. There are several that I totally disagree with but many more are on target. All I can do it is take it one day at a time! Thank You!Quote:
Originally Posted by Silentpartner GG SO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaz
I would imagine each relationship is different. My trust has been broken and I hope in time we can work through it. I am pretty certain if the shoe was on the other foot for you, you may respond differently. Regardless you have your right to your opinion and I appreciate your comments. Thank you!
Lola I'm so pleased that you have come back - please do get your 10 posts in and join us in FAB forum.
The fact that you are here is testament to the fact that you are willing to try and work this through with your OH. I hope he is also making the effort.:hugs:
Welcome back!
pssst...Rhianna was saying that Raquel was blaming you :) Things taht seem not important can be a real blow to the other person. We often assume that "it isn't a big deal". But it can be a big deal. When something like this happens the partner (you) who gets blindsided starts to ask "what else are you hiding?" Yes it is clothes, clothes that if your SO had asked maybe you would have said "Yeah go ahead" about wearing. But the fact that it was done on the sly makes you wonder. Most of us know that. How are things going? (and if you reply to this that is one more post closer to getting your 10 :))Quote:
Originally Posted by Lola14U
nice one Lorileah :thumbsup:Quote:
and if you reply to this that is one more post closer to getting your 10 )
Hi Lola, welcome back.
Please do post enough times to count ten total posts outside of any posts made in Intro sections, and then apply to join FAB. I think you will be helped by FAB as well. :hugs:
It isn't the dressing that is bothering you. It's the fact it has been "hidden" for 15 years. The act of hiding in itself. I think since you are comfortable in the room with it, he thought he had free reign since you "knew" that he wears things like that. All you need to do is tell him you are not okay with him leaving the home like that. He should respect your needs. If not, he obviously has no idea what he has.
People are all over the place with their advice, and I think ReineD and Tina B. both make very good (and conflicting) points.
I just don't understand why she won't say what her husband was planning to do. That's a pretty important piece of information -- and if he won't tell her or she doesn't trust him to be honest about where he was going, that's also an important piece of information.
I'm amazed at the number of people who have given advice, most of it extremely drastic, without any kind of clear information as to who the OP was,who did what to whom and under what circumstances. Even after some info was provided, it was far from enough to form an opinion and certainly not enough to give recommendations as to how the OP should proceed.
One thing that has always bothered me is the often expressed idea that a couple should have to share every bit of of their lives with each other; sometimes it is far better to keep a portion to oneself. I don't understand how someone can feel "betrayed" without violation of a prior agreement; none has been indicated here.
Hi Lola,
Having been in the community for a long time and having seen many significant others upset about crossdressing, it has been my experience that trust is the major issue. I have yet to meet the partner of a transgendered person, who did not know the person was transgendered, or to what extent they were, that did not feel a sense of betrayal and or trust broken. There are supposed to be no secrets, and yet it happens.
I was in a similar situation as your husband, my now ex-wife knew I liked to wear panties and lingerie in the bedroom, but she had no idea that I had felt like I was a girl since I was very young. One reason, and not much discussed here, is denial. I did the same things your husband did. I dressed in secret, I hid my clothes from my ex-wife and even wore them in public secretly. Even when she caught me, as you caught your husband, I was still denying it was anything other than a fetish.
The reason is because I felt I could do nothing about it. Around age 19 I realized that I was never going to transition. There was no internet and all the crossdressers I seen were on Phil Donahue as female impersonators and entertainers. I didn't know about Harry Benjamin and the first sex change operations in the United States did not happen until the 70's. Basically I had to accept I was a freak and no one could ever know the truth. I was going to have to live as a man.
But in my first year of marriage my ex suggested we try on each others underwear during a sexual encounter, so we did. This emboldened me so I did it more and bought more lingerie. I started wearing them under my clothes at work, dressing in secret when she was not at home and even to bed in lingerie, without my ex knowing. Eventually she found out, we had a huge fight and I had to purge all my clothes and promise to never crossdress again, to avoid divorce and loss of custody of my children. This was a promise I would not be able to keep.
After many fights and many purges we reached an agreement where I could wear girls underwear full time with her knowledge, but it was begrudged acceptance. Still, whenever I was alone, or on business trips, I would buy more clothes and wear them and even throw them away before I came home, if I had to.
The thing is, I didn't want to lie, she made me lie by being inflexible and continually threatening to divorce me, out me, and take my kids. Over the years, the resentments grew and eventually she did what she said. She outed me to my brother, and that started what would become a very nasty divorce. But once outed, I embraced it and have lived as a woman ever since.
I married a woman who only knows me as Elizabeth. We are best friends and spend almost all of our time together. We are friends, girlfriends, lovers and each others number one fan. I have been living in the open since that time and in the end, all of my children excepted me and my three minor children at the time of the divorce all chose to live with me, even living as a woman.
So your husband may be in denial. I never dreamed I could actually live my life as a woman, so I remained in denial about how serious my gender dysphoria was. My ex asked me many times if I wanted to live the "crossdresser lifestyle", and I always denied it saying it was just a fetish. I would suggest you and your husband get some therapy and find out what each of you really feels. Only then will communication be useful.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I think something as contentious as going out fully dressed en femme, when the wife is safely at work is implied betrayal. To say that there was no agreement is IMO splitting hairs. There are lots of things in life and marriage that arent specifically gone over with a fine tooth comb, its just obvious what is expected.
For example - when you get married, its fairly well implied that you are not going to sleep around. You dont specifically agree not to do so. If you decide an open marriage is what you want, then you would brooch the subject and discuss it. You wouldnt expect to just go ahead and sleep with the nextdoor neighbout and then say "well you didnt say I couldnt" would you???
Lola was, by implication, lead to believe that her SO's dressing was "bedroom fun" - therefore the implication was that it was going to stay in the bedroom. Something as fundamental as going out fully dressed 'in secret' when she wasnt around is pretty sneaky - that's not just 'not sharing every detail' that's downright deceitful. Lola may have been absolutely ok with her husband going out dressed but she wasnt given the opportunity to say yay or nay.
You cannot seriously expect a wife to say what she is ok with if she doesnt know what there is to be ok or not ok about. The onus is on the husband to say what it is he is wanting from the dressing and then discuss with his wife what she is ok with - and take it from there, regardless of what the intention was or where the husband was going when he was dressed. IMO that is slightly irrelevant in this case. The issue here is something being done deliberately behind the wife's back. I would be pretty damn miffed about if it happened to me and I am very accepting of my husband's CD'ing. I would add that my husband would not do this without running it by me first anyway.
Hi Lola, I just want you to think about posting so you get your 10 in and then join the FAB (female at birth) group and you will get tons of advice from women that have shared experiences with you - this is a really good support forum! You don't have to say much in a post... just meet the character quota... 20 words will do it! Probably less..
I hope my post helped in terms of context... every relationship is different and there are no generic fixes, but we can learn from others ('cases'.. is the usual term). English Common Law is based on this principle and the line of academic research I am involved in also works on this principle... that knowledge is built from experience.
I hope you hang in here and get to work things out. You have reached a crowd who really want to help!
Lola, I'm so glad to see you post again! Please do keep posting - I really want to see you join us in FAB! Both Reine and I have links to how to join at the bottom of our posts.
Raquel, I think Lola has been trying to give the bare minimum information because this is a board that is visible by anyone, and she is not super comfortable with that. I know I would hate to give any details here that would out myself (and therefore my boyfriend, who is not out as a cross dresser and has a quite public role in a very small town) in case someone we know did a Google search that happened to bring up something (anything) that was - to them - identifiable. Some wives are not comfortable with how they feel, are not ready to express that to their husbands, and need to work through things logically before they can talk about things to their husbands that involve such confusing emotions. This is why we have FAB, to be private, supportive and for GGs in relationships with people in this community only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raquel June
On one purely logical level, a lot of people are objectively right - why on Earth would some simple scraps of cloth cause something so strong as betrayal? But then when you acknowledge that EVERY FEELING YOU FEEL IS VALID, you remember that people sometimes die for wearing the wrong colour bandana in LA (something no one told me when I was in my bandana loving phase as a teenager and visited there!), that people wear their national identity in their keffiyehs, and let's not forget all the emotional reactions so many people have to full Muslim dress. My point being, feelings are feelings and they can be strong about clothing, even unexpectedly.
I just reread this entire thread and the word betrayal is not unwarrented here, IMHO. Lola was led to believe that the extent of her husband's feminine self was a bit of bedroom activity.
Suddenly she finds her husband completely transformed, and as we all know that kind of sophistication does not happen overnight. Lola had been systematically mislead. How can that fact not destroy trust? You all know how the logic goes: "if he can mislead me in this, what else is there lurking around the next corner"? We have all read, on this forum, about how this kind of undermining of trust can break a marriage. We also know just how difficult the psychology of being transgendered can be, and how hard it is to open up to anyone, a spouse included.
This is a serious issue and some professional help may be needed, not to condemn anyone or try to "cure" anyone, but in order to rebuild the trust that is necessary in every strong relationship.
I truly hope that both Lola and her husband can come to understand the very difficult issues that surround them. I know we all understand how had this can be and are pulling for them strongly!
tina
^^ The marriage thing was a poor example. You DO agree to not sleep around if you get married in a Christian setting. Adultery ring a bell? It's one of the ten commandments......
I could understand if she came home to find him with another woman...feeling "betrayed." That's breaking a WRITTEN and PROMISED code. When you get married and promise to "love HER and KEEP HER," that's where that is. The bottom line thing you need to look at is this. This is a preference someone has. Someone has a preference to do what they do. If he was to go out in his boxers to check the mail, would you feel "betrayed?" If he prefers to eat alligator, would you feel "betrayed"? I have only felt betrayed twice in my life. The two times my ex wife cheated on me. Once just forty eight hours before we got married...after waiting ten years to get married as virgins. THAT'S betrayal.
Did he lie to you? Probably so. This is like giving a kid a ball, saying "Play with it in your room." You come home, and find he's outside with it, and you are upset he's playing with the ball JUST because he's outside. I know I'm up against the majority, but I would understand this alot more if you didn't approve of it at all. If you didn't know anything, and came home to find it. I know when I dress, I walk around in heels, dressed to impress at times just because I want to. I don't leave, but I dang sure look like I'm going to. I don't see betrayal as an appropriate word here.
Let me ask those of you who feel that "betrayed" is too strong a word.
Aside from the fact that Lola and her husband were kinky in the bedroom, do you feel that a GG in general is overreacting if she feels a sense of betrayal when she discovers that her husband has hidden the CDing from her, and that the gender issues are strong enough to the point where he feels it necessary to go out and present as a woman in public?
Keep in mind that to Lola, wearing panties for kink is as unrelated to the CDing as having a foot fetish.
Reine, after two people meet, we learn things about each other. I know one thing that aggravates my wife is that if I am really tired, I shake my feet to help me fall asleep. She doesn't like eggs unless they are scrambled. She hates seafood, yet, I'm from an island where that is all we ate! All of these things are preferences and we all learn things about each other the other tried to hide. It's not betrayal, it's developing a relationship as long as the issues are talked about. What you must ask yourself is how much do you love your partner? If they got hooked on drugs, would you help them or just give up on them and leave? What about a disease? What about finding out they were really a man/woman? I can tell you I would deal with any of those things in a heart beat because I love my wife. You deal with things you don't want to because these problems arise in relationships. They just do. No matter who you are married to. Sure, if abuse or cheating occurs, that's different as it is deemed by the churches who founded marriage as wrong. This is just a different kind of problem...that really isn't a problem when you think about it. He doesn't beat you, stay out all night drinking or getting high, or cheat on you. He just likes to be himself. Unlike the others, this is easy. Take him into a room. If you approve, say you do. If you don't, say you don't, and would prefer not to see him like that. It's that easy. If that isn't respected, then sure, draw the line. Highly doubt it will happen though because he knows he upset you. I just don't see betrayal fitting into ANY situation we are in just from the dressing alone. Betrayal is promising one thing, and doing another. That doesn't apply here to me.
Ahhh! But this is where the attitudes of CDers and their wives fundamentally differ. To the CDers who have felt a kinship with femininity (to varying degrees) all or most of their lives, or for a number of years, this is a part of their very fabric and it really is no big deal. They know who they are, it's normal for them, they've lived in their own skins and they have no other sense of gender identity than what they experience daily. I think it's safe to say that most CDers don't really understand why the non-accepting wives are so non-accepting. As you say, the prevailing attitude is, "I'm no different than I always was. Doesn't she love me enough to accept my inner core?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessica86
But, gender variance to most people is not only confusing, it is disapproved of and censured even if subconsciously, and this comes from society's general lack of understanding. There is a lack of understanding because there are so few CDers and they have kept themselves closeted, which perpetuates the lack of understanding. You know that homosexuality used to be considered a mental disease and even today it is considered a perversion in some circles. The same attitudes prevail over M2F cross-gender expression. Unlike her husband, a wife has nothing in her own internal landscape to relate to that will give her a sense of normalcy. She is very much a product of societal ignorance and bias (just like the CDs who hate the CDing and who go through years of purging cycles) and I cannot blame her for feeling as if it is *a big deal* to discover that her husband might be *one of those*. If he has purposely hidden the full extent from her (again, there is quite a jump from kinky bedroom play to full CDing), she feels betrayed.
This is not to say that she cannot embark on a learning path, and certainly Lola is here to do this. But the initial reaction is very much one of betrayal over having been lied to about something that is so HUGE. It's apparent from reading the responses in this thread that few people will understand a wife's POV, other than the wives who have walked in her shoes.
If Lola says that she feels betrayed, this is how she feels and no one has the right to tell her that her feelings are wrong. People can suggest ways that she can learn more about the CDing in order to move beyond her feelings of betrayal, but to invalidate her feelings is not a way to help someone who wants to understand her husband.
I didn't mean to write so much, but honestly this is a no-brainer to me and I'm astounded there are so many people who just don't get it.
Reine, I totally agree with you but I think that you are banging your head on a brick wall. Some people are just not willing to see things from the wife's point of view, which I find a bit rich because they will quickly complain about their wives not willing to try and understand their need to dress. It goes both ways doesnt it.
No, it is not. In fact, if he has been saying it was just bedroom fun, he has been lying. It always comes back to the "if he can lie to me about this, what else is there?" question. Going "out" is absolutely something that should be discussed. I am not saying the husband has to ask for permission, but both his feelings and hers need to come out.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
This has certainly opened up some interesting viewpoints, and having read through the thread again I am minded by the lack of context we have to Lola's situation. I therefore suspect that many of the 'stances' that seem to be being taken are more subjective than objective. Nothing wrong with this, but this opens up another level of debate around those subjective stances. In this arena, it is usual that a lot of assumptions are being made and then the tendency is to retrench to comfortable 'positions'. And then the debate gets polarised and breaks down into the usual male - female perspectives. Certainly I have approached this from 'my position' of 'intention'. As people we develop and change over time but my intention in my relationship has always been positive. I have always put my wife's feelings, needs and wants before mine. The case I guess I was postulating was that sometimes it is difficult to tell what we don't understand and maybe haven't realised yet. This is certainly true for me and my marriage. My wife has been deeply upset that she now has something going on that she didn't 'sign up' for... but I feel the same about other things... I just rationalise it as 'she didn't know life was going to pan out like this at the time, so how could she have told me?'.
Now if Lola's partner has 'known' about where his interest in women's clothes was going to take him all along and he had a plan to deceive her, then yeah, guilty as charged... and I really feel for Lola. If he is just mixed up and trying to work through his issues so that he can then communicate, this is very different.
I have learned so much from this forum and if I knew then what I know now I would have done things very differently indeed. It would have been a very different journey indeed.
My natural inclination is not to judge and condemn, but to understand... and then build for the future...
So, do you feel that having let Lola believe that this was just bedroom playtime but in parallel spent so much time that he could perfect a look that initially deceived his wife, this indicates he was simply mixed up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaz
Or would you say that taking time off of work to dress up with full make-up and go out was just part of him not knowing where the "bedroom playtime" would lead?
It is good that you don't judge and condemn, perhaps you can set an example for Raquel and the others who blame Lola for not knowing that "bedroom playtime" meant going behind her back to perfect a look and go out en femme at a time when she thought he was at work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaz
I wish I had all your wisdom and understanding Rianna. I will back out of this as I am clearly outclassed in the understanding and tolerance stakes. I unreservedly apologise to everybody I have offended by trying to be open and honest and not to take sides, but rather to seek understanding. There are times, I now appreciate, where tolerance and a genuine need for understanding are not appropriate and I sincerely apologise for getting that call wrong.
Just for the record, Lola, if you are reading this, please feel free to PM me (send me a personal message) - I would be really happy to share my experiences with you. I totally support your concerns and feelings and am seeking to understand, learn, help, etc... The place I am coming from is one of... if I can share with you my thoughts and emotions as I struggle with this journey I have been on, then the world might be a more informed place and we might make better life decisions... I am NOT supporting your SO as I don't have sufficient data, but I have been trying to explore potential scenarios...
I am still with my wife and we have had many ups and downs... I don't know what the future holds, we have difficulties to deal with on both sides and in relation to our kids, relatives, etc.. life gets complex as you get older...! She will not accept any of it... she regards it as kinky and doesn't want to know. For me it isn't kinky... and it is isn't weird... it is just me.
I thought that I might help... if I am not, just push the exterminate button... I am just another cross-dresser who didn't realise what it was about until it was too late and has been repairing the damage for a long, long time.
And to Rianna... your tag says...'to thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any....'
I thought I was... but your words of wisdom and well thought through implications just leave me in awe! I bow to you...
And I apologise to everyone on the thread and in particular Lola... I did post with positive intention... and I do feel for what you are going through...
I'm sorry that you saw this as a put-down I was trying to use your words to bring out my questions relating to what a number of people have been saying in the thread and I genuinely meant what I said about your attitude being an positive example to other posters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaz
Numerous posters have condemned the OP for feeling her trust had been betrayed and have even gone so far as to accuse her (IMNSHO unjustly) of behaving intolerantly towards her husband because she has come here trying to find a way to understand. You, Kaz, were not one of them.