Motel/hotel rooms and the shame of crossdressing...I feel a rant coming on!

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Originally Posted by suzy1

I am insulted by the presumptions from some members about members like me that choose not go out dressed.

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It's not a presumption...considering at one time... I could have written the EXACT same things you and Nicole have said about the closet....Frederique too...girly typeface and everything. Really. 13 years ago I was saying pretty much the same things you have said. But guess what, I learned from those who had experience and history who said things like Lorileah, Badtranny and I have done in this thread. It was people like Lacey Leigh, Joann Prinzivalli and Caprice Bellefleur, people only some of the oldest of oldbies here would even know of....that helped me then back when I was clueless and naive. Did you know Lacey Leigh wrote and self published a booK? Probably not. Have you read ANY trans-related books?

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You have no idea how annoying it is to read some of these comments.

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How do you think I feel. 13 bloody years in the various online trans-communities and some people STILL don't want to learn from history or experience of others. The only reason I say the things I do is to try to prevent problems...including things I learned from personal experience.

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Is it not a good idea to stick to commenting on something you understand?

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After 13 YEARS and a tonne of reading, I think I understand the online transcommunity and transgendered people in general, and their archetypes and patterns of behavior quite a bit.

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Perhaps even develop some empathy and understanding about the REAL reasons why members like me choose not to go out dressed and not put a label on us like ‘we feel shame or guilt or are negative or something.

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And what "real" reasons are those? I've seen a lot of reaons including the ones I myself had, over the years and most of the time they do boil down to one of those negative's I mentioned. So tell me...what's your reason?

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I have never criticized anyone for going out dressed.

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I call it criticism when you respond like this when people mention going out. You have a very strong emotional reaction against it. And it's not just because of me, you have always got defensive and nasty when the topic was brought up.

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Don’t criticize me for not or start telling me the reasons why I don’t go out dressed.

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Let me paraphrase something I was told about 13 years ago. "Sometimes one needs a kick in the pants to break them out of their fear and complacency."

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

Is it me?

Just curious. ;-)

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No it's me, ever since I confronted her on thread some time back on a thread related to this topic, if I remember correctly. It's become something of a vendetta, it got a bit worse when I confronted Frederique, who is also of the "not liking the out people" crowd.

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

But sometimes there's a refusal to understand someone else's point of view.

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One word....Experience.

It matters. As I said, I understand Suzy and Nicole quite well, since at one time I could have written the same things they did. I've seen the pattern over and over and over for years. it goes like this:

1. Someone experienced and wise, posts about how going out made them feel better and how it's a good thing and helps us all.

2. someone like Suzy or Nicole (or me back in 1999) says something like: "Stop being pushy and arrogant, you don't know how I feel... you're making me feel bad and ashamed of my fear"

3. Experienced person ays "I felt like you once...trust me, you'll feel better once you let go of the fear"

4. someone like Suzy or Nicole (or 1999 me) says: "I'm not afraid...I just don't want to go out... I live in a small town/deep sount/ conservative area...I can't go out."

5. Experienced person says "that's the fear talking, and it's bullshit, and you know it"

6. Someone like Suzy, Nicole or 1999 Me says: Stop it!"

7. Time passes and the Suzy/Nicole/Me in 1999 reads more and sees people writing and decides to go out or tell someone...the world doesn't end.

8. Me in 2001: "It was just like you said...the world didn't end. And yes I was afraid and let my fear rule me and I didn't want to admit it. I feel so much better...it really works."

8. Someone else full of fear: "Stop saying that... I'll never go out...never never....I'm not afraid... Stop talking about going out and making us fearful folks feel bad."

9. The old hand who started the thing in #1: "here we go again"

I've seen that pattern repeat over and over and over again. USENET, IRC, message boards including this one.

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One of the main reasons for not coming out is that someone is in a marriage with an SO who wants nothing to do with CDing.

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Why did the CD marry someone who wasn't okay with the CDing in the first place? We all know the answer to that one...having seen it so many times.

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There are people who fear (and often rightly) the consequences for their family or their job, etc.

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But that brings up what we said. How are things going to get better so that people DONT have to worry about that...if people hide in their closets and don't do anything. That would mean nothing would ever get better. Don't you want things to get better for us all?

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And there are always so many people who think they can sound someone else's heart and tell them what they find there.

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Do you know why? Badtranny, Lorileah and I have "been there, done that, got the cap sleeve v-neck pastel t-shirt" We've had the same fears! others like me have been involved in the transcommunity (online and off) for so long that we've seen so much of this.

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I'd never take it upon myself to judge somebody else's situation. I've had enough trouble judging my own. I certainly wouldn't tell somebody else how to live their life.

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But shouldn't those with experience help those dealing with the exact same struggles they did? Should they stand aside and do nothing while the others experience anguish and pain?

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Would I take a similar risk purely for their sake? What do they owe me? What do I owe them?

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Owe them....they're "your people"! We're all in this together! This whole "I'm not my brothers keeper, I've got mine, who gives a damn about anyone else" attitude has to end.

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Perhaps each individual has come out for his/her own personal reasons.

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I did, but every little bit helps. Every CD who gets out there and does their thing without shame and holds their head high...helps us all.

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Yes, altruism is a very good thing, but how many of us can honestly say that's our prime motivation in getting out?

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It doesn't have to be the only or primary motivation....but people should do "something" instead of just sitting back and waiting for things to get better.

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Does that make me better than other people?

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It does make you more experienced...and you do know that the world didn't end...did it?

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I've been lost for so long. Will I now tell people how to find themselves? I'm not St. Paul and don't want to be.

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But if people don't share what they've learned...others will not learn from the mistakes the previous ones did....and nothing will change or get better.

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

But I do love the triumphs, the look of happiness you can see when someone is finally able to be out as who they really are.

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Bless you.

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and I agree with Veronica on this, what else can you assume? ......Yes it is an assumption but it is based on fact and often true. Especially when the accompanying post says "I finally got away from my SO and was t a hotel in another city where I could dress up without having the fear of being caught or seen" (Totally a amalgamation of several posts of similar ilk)

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Indeed, those posts are what I was thinking of.

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but it would be nice if you would. So many here complain about not "being able" but then they shy away from making it happen. I am sure that MLK would have been a lot happier and safer being a minister in a small church somewhere. Well as happy as a man who was considered a second class citizen , who was told that he could not certain things, that some rights were meant for other and not for him. He could have lived his life in relative peace. But he didn't.

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Exactly.

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You are right, nothing for you and once again I will reference the poem written after WWII by Rev Martin Niemöller, Hopefully just before they come for you.

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I wasn't thinking of Niemoller but I'm glad you mentioned the poem. :-)

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However when was teh last post you saw by a "TS" who said "OMG I am so afrid of what the world will say I will just hide and wait until things get better on their own"? Hey, any thing we post here is to help support or advance the OP's life, I hope.

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Indeed...even if get pointed...I'm just trying to break through folks mental barriers.

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I was not a happy camper, I was angry and withdrawn and unsocial.

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Nods, that seems to be pattern.

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So many things we DON'T do because we are so busy doing what others think we SHOULD do. It takes awhile for many to see this, that life is short enough, that by not being happy it makes it worse.

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Yes! I'm glad you're bringing up the emotional aspects.

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My hope is that someday, at least the fear of being "discovered" will be moot.

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And Mine as well.

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But don't worry, I am going to present and represent. Small spit in the ocean thing but maybe someday our children will be able to wear what they like, love who they want, live a life that does not have to be hidden. Yes I have a dream, I may not make it to the mountain top with you, but someday "our" people will stand upon it (OK got a little maudlin there sorry)

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Well said.

Veronica

Veronica, you have a lot to say, and you take a lot on yourself. Are you really sure you're up for it? You're displaying what I call "the St. Paul Syndrome": what is true of me is true of everybody, and what will save me will save everybody. Paul was wrong.

Life isn't so simple, and people aren't so easily reduced to formulas.

As for this statement of yours:

Owe them....they're "your people"! We're all in this together! This whole "I'm not my brothers keeper, I've got mine, who gives a damn about anyone else" attitude has to end.

I'll decide for myself who "my people" are. A lot of them may be trans, a lot of them may not be. I don't buy my friends in packets. Here's a quote from Leonard Cohen that I think is appropriate:

And if you call me brother now
Forgive me if I inquire,
Just according to whose plan?

I'll wait and see, Veronica. I'll wait and see.

Annabelle

Thanks for the advice Veronica. You are the wise one and I am an inexperienced young person that knows nothing about myself or the big wide world out there.
Please hold my hand and guide me through all the hazards of this C.D. world for without you I am a lost soul.
Yes, please kick me in the pants to break me out of my fear and complicacy.

Thank you, thank you so much. You are my hero.

Poor little Suzy:heehee:

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

It occurs to me that so many of the photos that fellow forum members here have posted on this site were taken either in motel or in hotel rooms, based on the decor evident in the background. That just underlines again how secretive most of us still are regarding our "strange" hobby. Not just secretive, but downright ashamed, actually...

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[SIZE="2"]You alienate many members by calling crossdressing a “hobby.� That’s your first mistake… :straightface:[/SIZE]

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So let's take a cue from our gay and lesbian fellow travellers on this sex/gender continuum, be "loud, proud, and out", come out of hiding and go forth confidently into the big bad world, see and be seen, and don't let anyone ever try to diminish us again because of who or what we are...

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[SIZE="2"]Sounds a lot like “Lead, follow, or get out of the way!� doesn’t it? I’ll never be loud, I’ll never be proud (since I hate that overtly male term), and I’ll never let anyone tell me I have to be OUT just because it will improve their perception of themselves. I’m responsible for my own happiness, and that involves not listening to self-righteous blowhards who feel the need to step up on the nearest soapbox, ABOVE us all, and rant about how they have been mistreated by society. I am at peace with myself, doing what I do, HOW I like to do it, and your way is not MY way, get it?

Referencing what I wrote above, you need to know I suspended ignoring you long enough to read this latest rant of yours, if only to verify something to myself. Yup, I was right. Why all the rants of late? Is something bothering you? Hijacking your own volatile vernacular, crossdressing is a wonderful, yet “strange� so-called hobby – why not just crossdress according to your own desires and stop kicking the communal hornet’s nest? Oh, and BTW, thanks for not answering my PM…[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by TGMarla

This very basically harmless activity becomes not quite so harmless and simple when scrutinized, analyzed, and publicized. Assuredly, we are hurting no one, but stand to get hurt very badly should the knowledge of our crossdressing become public knowledge.

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[SIZE="2"]And who wishes to be hurt? It helps to understand HOW you are, WHERE you are, and WHEN you are, and “act� accordingly. Some of us are very sensitive, as well as sensitive to the feelings of others. I don’t wish to bother anyone, whether I’m crossdressed or not…[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

It was beautiful and pointed, and deliciously bitchy. Perfect.

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[SIZE="2"]The author of that post specializes in such things. Thanks SO much for the encouragement… :sad:[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

Here's a quote from Leonard Cohen that I think is appropriate:

And if you call me brother now
Forgive me if I inquire,
Just according to whose plan?

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Not fair to invoke Leonard Cohen, his words make mine look lowercase indeed.

You may want to pick your people but unfortunately, we humans hang from the frayed end of circumstance and our people are often chosen for us by the greater social construct. Having said that, you may love and support your sister without always being in 100% agreement. There's many girls on this board who I have come to like and respect very much, but I don't think there's ANY of them that I haven't argued with at one time or another. My "online persona" is real and my thoughts and opinions are real and there is no way to be a real genuine person with an authentic personality and NOT disagree with someone or a lot of someones. Just because Veronica is kinda bitchy doesn't mean she's wrong or even misguided. Just because a bunch of us endorse coming out doesn't mean we think everybody should do it OUR way. I feel like my way was pretty unique, and I bet the other girls would say the same thing. My friend Allie is OUT but she is out in her own way. She does what works for her. If I tease her about sneaking out of the house (not from a wife) she just tells me to mind my own business. I would never say she is closeted, but she's definitely different than me, and that is totally okay. She does more for the advancement of TG acceptance in a single weekend than 100 closeted CD's do all year, but the important point is she does it her way.

Being closeted is a personal choice and I have no issue with it unless you are a closeted CD, or queer, or whatever and are actively working to undermine the advancement of my civil rights. That is the biggest rub for me because I know that closet queens are the most anti-gay people out there. Back when I was one myself (in Bakersfield) I met one or two of these bitches and some of them were in local politics. Suffice to say that their constituents had no idea what they were up to in the back of my truck. It was only the closet that allowed them the luxury of that duality. It's hard if not impossible to accept yourself as gay and then actively campaign against the rights of your community, but for some reason it's much easier if you just don't acknowledge your own gayness.

Being a closet CD is the same. If you can look at yourself in the mirror, when you're NOT dressed and say "I am a transgender person" and truly accept yourself for who you are, then you will begin to slowly come out of your shell. You will begin to vote differently, you will begin to expand your circle of friends, you will begin to spend less time with people that are openly bigoted towards people like you. Eventually you may even let some people see the real you. This is what happens BEFORE you come out to the world. Soon you will be proud that you are living more openly. NOT proud to be TG, you had no choice in that matter, but proud to have finally accepted yourself and proud that you are no longer afraid.

Than you can come on here and fight with a whole new group of sisters. ;-)

First let me say "I am NOT gay" (but my boyfriend is). OK cheap shot at bad humor

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

Just because Veronica is kinda bitchy doesn't mean she's wrong or even misguided.

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Ouch :)

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Just because a bunch of us endorse coming out doesn't mean we think everybody should do it OUR way. I feel like my way was pretty unique, and I bet the other girls would say the same thing.

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agreed, it took personal loss, twice in 3 years for me and I would not wish that on anyone. OTOH, I would like to help someone prevent the potholes. If you read the stories here you start to see a pattern and often that pattern has pain associated with it. Pain hurts. But if someone says "don't do that" maybe you can avoid it. There are people here who will never go out and are perfectly happy about that. That is good. But there are far more who dream and wish to go out but are stymied by fear, fear of things that are not there. Fear of what they imagine will happen, and it is often the worst case scenario. Fear because they have been taught to fear. I won't skydive because 1 out of 100,000 times the parachute doesn't open. If I had the desire to skydive I would welcome people who have jumped to tell me how it feels, how they finally overcame the fear, how great it is. Nothing more (No I still won't jump out of an airplane with one engine and two wings, I will wait until it is 2 feet off the ground and jump then).

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Being closeted is a personal choice and I have no issue with it unless you are a closeted CD, or queer, or whatever and are actively working to undermine the advancement of my civil rights

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emphasis mine. And when one sees themselves as being different or wrong or bad and they perpetuate it, either consciously or unconsciously, they do make my life as I am harder. We don't choose to be members of minorities who are somehow held back, but we can work to make it stop.

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If you can look at yourself in the mirror, when you're NOT dressed and say "I am a transgender person" and truly accept yourself for who you are, then you will begin to slowly come out of your shell.

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This is the quote of the year. So often people here say that they cannot be who or what they are because society won't let them, and yet when they are not dressed, they continue on as if nothing happens. It is like they are saying "accept me...well only when I want to otherwise, carry on". You don't have to wave the flag. Just don't try and stop the parade.

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Than you can come on here and fight with a whole new group of sisters. ;-)

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This isn't a fight, it has been a civil and fascinating discussion. If everyone here agreed it would be a boring "what color are you panties" site :). And I hope that no one here is my enemy. Maybe we won't share a latte, but no matter what (even if some disagree) I will defend your right to be who you are forever.

great post and yes we should do all that and the other, but like many have said is it that easy?

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Originally Posted by lolisa

but like many have said is it that easy?

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Oh no. It isn't easy at all. Self acceptance is one of the hardest things you can ever do. It's like working hard to be a singer your whole life. You've taken lessons, you've been in bands, you never miss a karaoke but one day you finally have to come to grips with the fact that you're not very good. You will never sing professionally and you have to accept that and be okay with it. It's awful to finally get to the point where you say I can't do this anymore. For me it was running from the little girl who had haunted me since pre-adolescence, for others it's the concept that they will NEVER be a normal man. They love to cross-dress and they want to do it more, or they want to explore their femininity, or they want to meet a man. Admit to yourself who you are and what you enjoy. Accept it, own it, embrace it. I promise you it is hard, but I also promise that loving yourself is worth every ounce of pain it takes to get there.

Coming out is the byproduct of that love, maybe not for everyone but I would say that for most people that love makes a light that becomes hard to shade. NOBODY wants to be transgender. I did NOT want to be a transsexual woman but one day I was in an accident that changed my life. I realized right then that life was too short to hate myself for something I couldn't change. I wasn't going to waste another minute. I was on HRT that very summer.

It is not easy, but when has something worthwhile ever been easy?

Ok, I've been slowly moving away from this forum because of the bad feelings. Seems like everyday was an opportunity to bash someone different from you on the gender spectrum, or to deny that spectrum even exists. (Hey, you are wrong BTW.) I just don't have the patience for it anymore. Well this thread has restored my faith a little bit.

Melissa, Lorileah, and Veronica. . .love you girls!

Debby

I travel on business, and spend up to 200 nights a year in hotels. My wife and travel about every 6 weeks for an extended weekend vacation, in addition to the business travel (all those points and miles have to be used). The unusual photos are the ones that are NOT in a hotel!

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

If you can look at yourself in the mirror, when you're NOT dressed and say "I am a transgender person" and truly accept yourself for who you are, then you will begin to slowly come out of your shell.

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[SIZE="2"]That’s fine and dandy if you ARE a transgendered person, but let’s not assume that the CD in the motel/hotel room, beset with alleged shame and struggling to express himself is transgendered – there are plenty of MtF crossdressers who dress as women, but they do not identify as female. Our boy in the motel is doing the best he can, under the circumstances, so please leave him alone so he can find himself, or herself, or at least derive some momentary pleasure from his crossdressing. I remember a time gone by when I could crossdress in peace without all of this TG rhetoric clouding my mind, but then I came to discussion forums like this one, and my crossdressing wasn’t so simple anymore. I take issue with this line of reasoning that you must be out in the open, come what may, or you’re just not qualified to be a TRUE MtF crossdresser – it sounds a lot like the bullying I used to get in the playground, where effeminacy was targeted without mercy, but now it's coming from a new (and, I must say, unwelcome) angle...

Saying there is a “shell� surrounding one’s true self sounds pretty, but, if you ask me, ALL people have protective enclosures, kept in place for security and survival. If you look in the mirror you will see what you want to see. How can I NOT accept who I am? This was automatic, and I immediately started to build my defenses against those who would do me harm. I live in a world where boys who identify as boys cannot be girls – not now, not ever, so I have to be very creative in my “approach� to this world. I want to crossdress for the sake of crossdressing, and let the rest take care of itself. Just like the heroes in the motel and hotel rooms, I know my limits, and I have developed my own boundaries for comfort – since I’m not TG, this is as far as it goes, but, to those who insist on being prideful, my ilk will never go far enough. This issue will forever be deadlocked, because I will not exceed my limits just to please and empower someone else, and the TG pundits will never take me seriously. We are worlds apart...

One more thing – a shell is just a metaphor. You assume I’m in a shell that I have created for myself, but, from my vantage point, I don’t detect the presence of a shell at all – you’re TELLING me that there is something wrong with me, and, on this point, I beg to differ...
:hmph: [/SIZE]

Freddy, I know you have your own ideas here but Transgendered is NOT the same as transsexual. It does include even the most transient CD's. Even a guy who dresses as a female for fun is transgendered...by definition that we use here at the very least. This is part of the issue when "we" don't even use the same terms in the same manner. And you are not reading the posts. No one said you MUST. You will gain the advantages when they come, the other minorities have had the same issues. Those who either did not want to join or those who felt that status quo was satisfactory. Those people get the same rights afterward and no one tells them they should not have them. If you use them or not is up to you. As a group we have that advantage that we can just "blend" away. We can remain unseen. If that is good enough for you then, good. But there are so many here who daily complain they cannot do something. They cannot wear the clothes (and women can how unfair!), they cannot go outside, they cannot dress as they wish, they cannot do whatever. To those, the ones who want more than what they believe they have, then get out. The world does not stop.
Think for a minute. Why does one take photos of oneself in a hotel room if they are satisfied with the status quo? Would they not just dress and then undress?

And nowhere in any of the posts in this thread did anyone say that anyone was LESS than another because they didn't go out.

And since we seem to be now going in circles, I am going to just say, Do what you want, the only person you need to please is yourself. You should try and please your spouse and children but you are the one you will live with your whole life. There are no re-rides. If you don't like how things are though, you are the one who needs to work on change. You can sit in the back of the bus and complain about the route, or you can drive the bus and go where you want to go on your own terms.

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

[SIZE="2"]One more thing – a shell is just a metaphor. You assume I’m in a shell that I have created for myself, but, from my vantage point, I don’t detect the presence of a shell at all – you’re TELLING me that there is something wrong with me, and, on this point, I beg to differ...
:hmph: [/SIZE]

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Goodness you are defensive with a capital D.

In fact I am NOT saying there is something wrong with you. Just the opposite actually, and when I used the term TG I was using it in the umbrella sense of all gender variant people. I fully understand that a good many (probably the majority) of CD's identify as men who just enjoy expressing some femininity or maybe just enjoy the clothes for whatever reason. That's great, but a LOT of these people are experiencing some soul killing guilt over this expression. You are apparently aces with your life the way it is and if so, nothing I say is of any interest to you but there is somebody standing in their bathroom right now in front of their mirror trying desperately to admit to themselves that they are cross-dressers and they are sick of being ashamed of it.

Have you been reading my whole posts because I make it pretty clear that the crux of this whole issue is self acceptance. I believe strongly (and possibly wrongly) that shame and humiliation are born from self hate. I think that acknowledging to like minded people that you enjoy cross-dressing is not the same as accepting yourself and in fact sites like this can be dangerous to the psyche because they can forestall or prevent self acceptance because they let the person believe that because they participate in forums that they have accepted who they are. The reality is quite different. There is a difference in keeping things private and keeping secrets. Everybody knows I poop, but nobody is likely to see it or hear me talk about it. It's not a secret, but it IS private.

You strike me as somebody who is fiercely independent and most likely not in need of a social acceptance. I'm very similar and I think that many of us have learned to cope with being shunned early in life by retreating into ourselves. Most people are NOT like this. Most people need other people and keeping deep dark secrets is not a healthy habit. I've also said that coming out is a very personal thing and every person will have a different methodology as well as different motivations. The ONLY thing I keep coming back to is self acceptance. I know it sounds trite, but when you really achieve it, you have a whole different idea about yourself. Purging for example doesn't just stop, it begins to seem ridiculous.

There is NOTHING wrong with cross dressing. There IS something wrong with being creepy and secretive.

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

You may want to pick your people but unfortunately, we humans hang from the frayed end of circumstance and our people are often chosen for us by the greater social construct. Having said that, you may love and support your sister without always being in 100% agreement. There's many girls on this board who I have come to like and respect very much, but I don't think there's ANY of them that I haven't argued with at one time or another. My "online persona" is real and my thoughts and opinions are real and there is no way to be a real genuine person with an authentic personality and NOT disagree with someone or a lot of someones. Just because Veronica is kinda bitchy doesn't mean she's wrong or even misguided. Just because a bunch of us endorse coming out doesn't mean we think everybody should do it OUR way. . ,.

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Hi, Melissa! I find very little to disagree with in your latest posts. What I appreciate about them most is that you do acknowledge that people are different, that their needs are different and that these needs may need to be addressed in different ways.

And you are right when you say that society will lump us all together. But that doesn't mean that society will always be right to do so. I will always and forevermore reserve the right to decide for myself who my brothers and sisters are. Obviously I feel a natural affinity for transpeople, but I've already met a few that I won't have anything to do with. If anyone says they're my brother/sister, they're going to have to show me that's true. I won't just take their word for it.

You know the old saying, "Nice guys finish last"? My reply to that is, "Yeah, but they're still nice guys. And anyway, who says they were running the same stupid race as everybody else? Maybe they didn't finish last. Maybe they weren't running at all."

And so if someone is "b***, but not wrong or misguided," well, she's still a b***. People can be right and on the right road without being bitchy. And this sets aside the question as to whether she is actually right.

It is possible to be right and beautiful at the same time. Can I quote Leonard Cohen again?

Every heart, every heart to love will come
But like a refugee
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack, a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in.

Veronica says she has lots of experience. Lots of us do. Here's what I've learned from my experience: there's truth and then there's truth. There's a bitchy sort of truth, if that's what you're interested in. But if you want the genuine article, look for beauty, look for depth. Bitchiness doesn't impress me in the least. I've got too much of that myself and I've always found it distasteful. I'd prefer to turn to people like Cohen.

Best wishes, Annabelle

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

It occurs to me that so many of the photos that fellow forum members here have posted on this site were taken either in motel or in hotel rooms, based on the decor evident in the background.

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Guilty your Honor. My avatar and a few others I cycle are taken in a hotel room. My current avatar photo was taken before I headed out to the Sydney casino – terrific time too!!

My hotel rooms are a mess with makeup, clothes and what not in cupboards or scattered around – the consequences of travelling with too much luggage and being sick and tired of having to store my clothes in cases. No attempt to hide them. Absolutely no pretences with all staff that I am anything other than a crossdresser. So I’m totally out when I’m away educating all and sundry that CDers are good people – I'm not secretive and certainly not ashamed.

Yet I am scared, in fact I’m terrified!! Terrified that I will lose the love of my life, my forever wife, who loves me dearly but abhors crossdressing even without an effort to understand.

So hotel rooms are my way of fulfilling myself to the max. "Sad" - no. I may be not happy with the circumstances that require me to dress away in hotel rooms (or a storage shed I have rented in my home city) but it works for me, at least for the time being.

Michelle

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

Exactly. A TG version of Anderson Cooper or sex and relationship advice columnist Dan Savage, perhaps.

Then again, we've already heard from Chaz Bono, who not only wrote a book about his life journey so far, but also gave an especially good account of himself on "Dancing With the Stars." A very positive role model, indeed.

---

I think "Savage Love" would do more harm than good, Dan Savage's columns kind of creep me out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barbara Ella

Cannot disagree with anything that Leslie said about our situation. However, the gay/lesbian situation was not brought into the mainstream by the loud proud shouting expositons, IMHO. It was brought into mainstream reality by kind thoughtful caring gays and lesbians going about their daily life in the best exemplary manner, showing all that they really are good citizens, and great people in their own right. Sure, every once in a while a good shout out is cathartic for the soul, but it does not sway public opinion.

Now, it is much more difficult for us, because as we go through our daily life being good fathers, husbands, citizens, the public really has no way of knowing, so it is harder to change their perceptions. Catch 22 at work. This will be slow, but we all just need to be the best person we can be at all times and hope to catch some individuals eye and make a good impression.

Barbara

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Just for the heck of it, the Stonewall riot in NYC started when cops decided to toss a crossdresser/gay bar. The quiet reasoned arguements started well after a group of Transgendered women did say "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore"
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/eres...w25/case1.html

Great posting and excellent viewpoint. I think all girls needs a place to begin, where they feel most comfortable with themselves before facing the public eye.

Kristy

Freddy said in here post “you’re TELLING me that there is something wrong with me”

And that is what seems so wrong with some member’s comments here.
You don’t know freddy or me personally. You can’t possibly say how we feel or think or if we are intelligent strong happy balanced people that do not need any advice from you. [I know I am freddy, how about you?]:)

And yet from reading some of the comments here and talking to individuals via P.M.s it seems clear to me that trying to get some of you to understand the simple point that I dont need to go out is imposable.:eek:

Varonica, you ask me “what is my reason for not going out?” I have told you before but I will tell you again, I don’t have a need to go out. This needs repeating, I DON’T HAVE A NEED TO! I don’t want to. And no, I am not being negative, I am not being naïve, or clueless, I am just being me. Get it? ME! I am a person that needs no help or advice from someone that tells me, yes tells me! what’s good for me. Who tells me that in a few years time I will change like you did Varonica. I won’t! So have you got it now? I have to assume you still haven’t but I live in hope.:praying:

Let me apologize for getting a bit heated. It’s just that when the same member [s] keep preaching to me about how experienced they are and how much I need there advice and how they know that I want to go out really which I so do not that it gets irritating. [A weakness on my part I know, I have a short fuse but I’m working on it, I really am]

What can I say? It’s wonderful that some go out dressed. It’s also a shame that some do not go out but really want to. They have there reasons.

But could some of you just stop telling me why I stay in my closet. I know why, I have a reasonably good brain in my head and its working surprisingly well at the moment.

Sorry I just got carried away here and I have no hard feeling for any one.
Others have a rant sometimes now its Suzy’s turn.:heehee:

P.S. Veronica please don’t pick this one to pieces and tell me all the reasons why you are right and I am wrong there’s a good girl.:)

SUZY

Yes, I am closeted. Yes I take most but not all my pictures in hotel rooms because I travel all the time and it is most convienent. When I am home, I'm usually doing other chores that need to be done. But, I still go out in public dressed whenever I can. I love it. It is exciting, yet I like smooth skin, the feel of heels, and flowing fabricks swishing over my body. I also enjoy a tight sexy mini skirt. I am straight, but have for years been vocal about peoples rights to be who they are. I may become less closeted in the future, but for now there are too many other issues on the table. As for the neighbor, we are friends, but I don't know his fetishes and he doesn't need to know mine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

Veronica, you have a lot to say, and you take a lot on yourself.

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No I didn't, and others in this thread said the same thing I did. I've just seen more crap and am bitchier about it.

Quote:

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You're displaying what I call "the St. Paul Syndrome": what is true of me is true of everybody, and what will save me will save everybody. Paul was wrong.

---

apples and oranges. Religion and trans, not the same thing. You've seen the repitition right? The same situations and concepts come up over and over here, right? Patterns of behavior, archetypes of transpeople? Very little here is new under the sun. Any veteran of USENET could tell you that.

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Life isn't so simple, and people aren't so easily reduced to formulas.

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Ever hear of Occam's Razor? I shave my legs with it all the time. I believe in simplicity. If we see a situation that's the same as something we've seeen before..many many times....why not try solutions that have been proven effective in practice.

Quote:

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I'll decide for myself who "my people" are. A lot of them may be trans, a lot of them may not be. I don't buy my friends in packets.

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I'm sorry, but the haters aren't going to let you choose. Besides there's strenght in numbers.

Quote:

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I'll wait and see, Veronica. I'll wait and see.

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Don't wait too long, life will pass you by.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suzy1

Thanks for the ....

Poor little Suzy:heehee:

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Right, crack a joke, make a sarcastic comment... That doesn't change the fact that 13 years ago...I could have wrote what you did because I was like you. You may not understand this...but I am saying the things I do because I want things to be better for everyone. I want there to be a day when someone like you could wear a dress to go shopping at Waitrose/Sainsbury/Tesco, or shop high street, or go to a game of footy, or just head down for a pint at the pub....without it being a big deal.

Really, is it fun being all dressed up and no place to go? if dressing is all you need, why post pictures. The pictures are there to show yourself and say "here I am", I exist...at least on a subconscious level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

You alienate many members by calling crossdressing a “hobby.�

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Well, at least we agree on that.

Quote:

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Sounds a lot like “Lead, follow, or get out of the way!� doesn’t it?

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Yes... so either lead, follow or get out of the way.

Quote:

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I’ll never be proud (since I hate that overtly male term),

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As a feminist, I am deeply offended by such a chauvinistic statement. Are you saying that women don't feel pride for themeselves and their accomplishments? "Pride" isn't a male term or emotion, it belongs to everyone. 1950 called, and it want's it's gender stereotypes back.

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and I’ll never let anyone tell me I have to be OUT just because it will improve their perception of themselves.

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No one is saying "have" they're saying that it's "better" and that you "should" there's a difference.

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and that involves not listening to self-righteous blowhards who feel the need to step up on the nearest soapbox, ABOVE us all, and rant about how they have been mistreated by society.

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Umm Frederique....consideing how often you write[size="2"] "society hates us and we must hide my dear sweeties and revel in our effeminancy and not let people pop our balloons" [/size]threads.... you are the one doing that.

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I am at peace with myself, doing what I do, HOW I like to do it, and your way is not MY way, get it?

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If you are at peace...why write so much complaining about the peole who go out? and how society hates us? Why then ignore people simply because they disagree with you, like Leslie or me?

Quote:

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The author of that post specializes in such things. Thanks SO much for the encouragement…

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I'm playing the "bad cop", Freddy, no one else seems willing to do it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

You may want to pick your people but unfortunately, we humans hang from the frayed end of circumstance and our people are often chosen for us by the greater social construct.

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Right.

Quote:

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Just because Veronica is kinda bitchy doesn't mean she's wrong or even misguided.

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Ouch! :)

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Just because a bunch of us endorse coming out doesn't mean we think everybody should do it OUR way.

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Right.

Quote:

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Being closeted is a personal choice and I have no issue with it unless you are a closeted CD, or queer, or whatever and are actively working to undermine the advancement of my civil rights. That is the biggest rub for me because I know that closet queens are the most anti-gay people out there.

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And that's my basic point as well.

Quote:

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It's hard if not impossible to accept yourself as gay and then actively campaign against the rights of your community, but for some reason it's much easier if you just don't acknowledge your own gayness.

Being a closet CD is the same.

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Yep.

Quote:

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Than you can come on here and fight with a whole new group of sisters. ;-)

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Yes, that's why we get so much of the same stuff and repetition, over and over.. It's a vicious cycle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

First let me say "I am NOT gay" (but my boyfriend is). OK cheap shot at bad humor

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That was funny.

Quote:

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Ouch :)

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ha ha ha ha

Quote:

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If you read the stories here you start to see a pattern and often that pattern has pain associated with it. Pain hurts. But if someone says "don't do that" maybe you can avoid it.

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It's what I always say: Prevention prevention prevention.

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But there are far more who dream and wish to go out but are stymied by fear, fear of things that are not there. Fear of what they imagine will happen, and it is often the worst case scenario. Fear because they have been taught to fear.

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Indeed, that's another basic point to keep emphasizing.

Quote:

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And when one sees themselves as being different or wrong or bad and they perpetuate it, either consciously or unconsciously, they do make my life as I am harder. We don't choose to be members of minorities who are somehow held back, but we can work to make it stop.

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Exactly.

Quote:

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If everyone here agreed it would be a boring "what color are you panties" site :).

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Nooooooo not more "color of pnaties" threads! (And yes, I intentionally mistyped "pnaties"...it's an AF thing, (dates from USENET AF)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lolisa

great post and yes we should do all that and the other, but like many have said is it that easy?

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It's very scary and that makes it hard, I understand this. Self acceptance is something you have to work for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

Oh no. It isn't easy at all. Self acceptance is one of the hardest things you can ever do.

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Yep.

Quote:

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Accept it, own it, embrace it. I promise you it is hard, but I also promise that loving yourself is worth every ounce of pain it takes to get there.

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Yes, I concur.

Quote:

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It is not easy, but when has something worthwhile ever been easy?

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Right.

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Originally Posted by Debglam

Well this thread has restored my faith a little bit.

Melissa, Lorileah, and Veronica. . .love you girls!

Debby

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Love ya too!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

That’s fine and dandy if you ARE a transgendered person, but let’s not assume that the CD in the motel/hotel room, beset with alleged shame and struggling to express himself is transgendered – there are plenty of MtF crossdressers who dress as women, but they do not identify as female.

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Why why why do you keep conflating transgender and transsexual....they're not the same thing. We are using "transgender" in the umbrella sense that applies to us all...not just referring to TS's.

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Our boy in the motel is doing the best he can, under the circumstances, so please leave him alone so he can find himself, or herself, or at least derive some momentary pleasure from his crossdressing.

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So crossdressing...alone...in a tiny hotel room, being afraid of stepping outside the door.... is "fun"? Compared to that...actually interacting in the world en femme even as a crossdresser is like frakkin Disney World of fun.

Quote:

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I remember a time gone by when I could crossdress in peace without all of this TG rhetoric clouding my mind,

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You're being facetious. You say you know who you are...but then you say the rhetoric clouds your mind. Which is it? Make up your mind.

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I live in a world where boys who identify as boys cannot be girls – not now, not ever, so I have to be very creative in my “approach� to this world.

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Such a limited sad world. I live in a world where boys who identify as boys can be girls. They can also go out to the closest MAC store and get a makeover, or go to the local salon en femme if they want to. They can also tell their best friend they like girly things, or their mother. Their mother or sister might even intentionally buy them girly things as gifts.

There was a movie called the Matrix... co-written and co-directed by a transwoman, Lana Wachowski...(who was living as male at the time of the films making). There's a quote that applies:

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Neo: I know you're out there. I can feel you now. I know that you're afraid... you're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see. I'm going to show them a world without you. A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.

---

Quote:

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Just like the heroes in the motel and hotel rooms, I know my limits,

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What limits are those? Why should there be any limits? They are self-imposed you know...why don't you break them.

Quote:

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since I’m not TG,

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There you go again. You ARE TG in the umbrella sense...don't you get it? Are you being intentionally obtuse about this? When Lorileah, Badtranny and I say "transgender" we're not saying "transsexual, understand that so at least perhaps we can be using the same terminology.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Transgendered is NOT the same as transsexual. It does include even the most transient CD's. Even a guy who dresses as a female for fun is transgendered...by definition that we use here at the very least. This is part of the issue when "we" don't even use the same terms in the same manner.

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Exactly.

Quote:

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But there are so many here who daily complain they cannot do something. They cannot wear the clothes (and women can how unfair!), they cannot go outside, they cannot dress as they wish, they cannot do whatever. To those, the ones who want more than what they believe they have, then get out. The world does not stop.

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And Freddy is one of those very people!

Quote:

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Think for a minute. Why does one take photos of oneself in a hotel room if they are satisfied with the status quo? Would they not just dress and then undress?

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Exactly...they want at least something that "shows" what they are.

Quote:

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And since we seem to be now going in circles,

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And the pattern repeats. :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

Goodness you are defensive with a capital D.

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Defensive with a capital D, That rhymes with B that stands for "balloon popping" :-)

Quote:

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Just the opposite actually, and when I used the term TG I was using it in the umbrella sense of all gender variant people.

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See?

Quote:

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Have you been reading my whole posts because I make it pretty clear that the crux of this whole issue is self acceptance.

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I believe that when one truly accepts oneself...that's when the closet becomes restricting.

Quote:

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I believe strongly (and possibly wrongly) that shame and humiliation are born from self hate.

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I don't think you're wrong at all.

Quote:

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I think that acknowledging to like minded people that you enjoy cross-dressing is not the same as accepting yourself and in fact sites like this can be dangerous to the psyche because they can forestall or prevent self acceptance because they let the person believe that because they participate in forums that they have accepted who they are.

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Very good point.

Quote:

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The ONLY thing I keep coming back to is self acceptance. I know it sounds trite, but when you really achieve it, you have a whole different idea about yourself. Purging for example doesn't just stop, it begins to seem ridiculous.

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Right again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

And you are right when you say that society will lump us all together. But that doesn't mean that society will always be right to do so.

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Doesn't matter....what matters is the reality "on the ground"...the reality that we have to deal with that they DO lump us together. Saying we shouldn't is futile...we work with what we have.

Quote:

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And so if someone is "b***, but not wrong or misguided," well, she's still a b***. People can be right and on the right road without being bitchy.

---

I deal with the reality of things...I use the methods that work. I've tried "nice" and it works...for some...but there are a lot of transfolks that need to have these concepts we've discussing figuratively knocked into their heads...because otherwise...they just don't get it and keep engaging in self-destructive behavior and feeling pain and anguish. I am the "bad cop", no one else is doing it.

Quote:

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And this sets aside the question as to whether she is actually right.

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I am...picky...about my words...and I don't say things unless there is a very high probability of them being accurate. Or to be blunt...you're a newbie with less than a year on these boards, I'm an oldbie...a few years from now, but hopefully sooner,...you'll understand what I'm getting at. Besides...myself, Lorielah and Melissa the Badtranny are saying the EXACT SAME THING. I'm just being bitchy because I have less patience for wasting time with niceties these days. Time's finite...time's a wastin...don't let lost opportunity pass you by.

Quote:

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Veronica says she has lots of experience.

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In the trans online community...yes.

Quote:

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Here's what I've learned from my experience: there's truth and then there's truth. There's a bitchy sort of truth, if that's what you're interested in. But if you want the genuine article, look for beauty, look for depth. Bitchiness doesn't impress me in the least.

---

Truth is truth, it just comes in various wrappers...including bitchy ones. I'm the "bad cop", others play "good cop" it's an effective combination and I'm all about "using what works"

Veronica

O.K. Varonica, I give up. [Bangs head agonised wall] :wall:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suzy1

O.K. Varonica, I give up. [Bangs head agonised wall] :wall:

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Me, too, Suzy. I've been having lots of happy thoughts lately. Why let a "friend" spoil them?

This is why I always reserve the right to decide for myself who my friends are. Nobody tells me, "We're in this together!" I'll make up my own mind.

This week I put a number of my cisfriends to the test: they passed with flying colors. It has absolutely astonished me.

So am I right in reserving for myself the right to decide who my friends are?

Best wishes, Annabelle

Quote:

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Originally Posted by suzy1

O.K. Varonica, I give up. [Bangs head agonised wall] :wall:

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Suzy, if you check the quote reference...I wasn't responding to the post you asked me not to respond to...I was composing my post when you posted that. I won't respond to that one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

This is why I always reserve the right to decide for myself who my friends are. Nobody tells me, "We're in this together!" I'll make up my own mind.

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You're being facetious. Friends and community are not the same thing and you can't apply the same rules to both. You pick your friends but you're stuck with the community you got. But I do understand that UK and Irish crossdressers don't have the same sense of community as we do over here.

Quote:

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This week I put a number of my cisfriends to the test: they passed with flying colors. It has absolutely astonished me.

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Why would it astonish you, haven't you seen that the "world doesn't end when you're open about this"? That's basically what we've been saying in this thread and you just proved us right. You just came out and it was a good thing, wasn't it?

Veronica

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Annabelle Larousse

This is why I always reserve the right to decide for myself who my friends are. Nobody tells me, "We're in this together!" I'll make up my own mind.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit

You're being facetious. Friends and community are not the same thing and you can't apply the same rules to both. You pick your friends but you're stuck with the community you got. But I do understand that UK and Irish crossdressers don't have the same sense of community as we do over here.

Veronica

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As I said, Veronica,

This is why I always reserve the right to decide for myself who my friends are. Nobody tells me, "We're in this together!" I'll make up my own mind.

And if you want to play semantics and change "friends" to "community", my position is the same. You can accept that or not.

And now you're commenting on Ireland and the UK from Central Illinois? As I said, Veronica, you take a lot on yourself.

Annabelle

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit

Suzy, if you check the quote reference...I wasn't responding to the post you asked me not to respond to...I was composing my post when you posted that. I won't respond to that one.

Veronica

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I know Varonica, I’m quite bright actually. I started banging my head anyway.:eek:

Veronica, post 71 has got to be the title holder for longest post on CD.com. You even out did me :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Veronica, post 71 has got to be the title holder for longest post on CD.com. You even out did me :)

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This thread is a record for me too. I usually don't have the patience to even skim read all the posts in a long thread. Must have too much time on my hands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Veronica, post 71 has got to be the title holder for longest post on CD.com. You even out did me.

---

[SIZE="2"]Too bad I can’t see it. This is one of those threads where half the participants are being ignored by yours truly for one reason or another, mainly because it’s the same old “I’m miserable, and I hate you for being so happy� diatribe. Live and let live, I say. You keep wallowing in misery, and I’ll try to enjoy my crossdressing as best I can, under the circumstances that describe my world...

Dearest Lorileah - don’t you think that I KNOW the difference between a crossdresser, a transgendered person and a transsexual? I’ve been here a while now, discussing the same old topics over and over – maybe you’ve noticed me. This section is titled “Male to Female crossdressing,� which, I assume, attracts every male by birth who has ever chosen to wear women’s clothing, for whatever reason. I don’t know what the percentage is, and I don’t care, but there are obviously lots of males who IDENTIFY as males yet crossdress, and some of them actually write about their happy experiences. In this context, on a discussion forum for crossdressers, in a section dedicated to MtF crossdressing, it strikes me as being patently unfair to have TG and TS individuals criticizing what we enjoy doing. I don’t know what the author of the OP’s “orientation� is, and I don’t care – she’s sniping at her peers in an attempt to insert shame into the equation. I don’t see how this can be helpful, unless she is actively seeking to separate the wheat from the chaff, at least in her own confused mind, and feel like she’s accomplishing something good...

And, in doing so, she is pointing out that certain MtF crossdressers live in shame, and the latter have to start asserting themselves, the sooner the better. What support! What community! What a sense of belonging I feel whenever I log on to this site, and then peruse this section, where the TG’s are going to tell you what you’re doing wrong! I’ll tell you, if I was a newbie, trying my best to get in a little crossdressing now and then, I would log off and forget the whole idea once I came in contact with those who are obviously WAY superior to me. It ain’t fair. Certain people on this sight are NOT like me, not one little bit, but that doesn’t prevent them from jabbing me with a pointed stick from time to time. They even check up on me, perhaps to see if they’ve chased me away yet (I can see who visits my profile page, you know). Yup, it’s the same old batch of miserable bitches who just can’t stand it when someone is enjoying himself via crossdressing...

May I offer a suggestion? How about keeping your thoughts to yourself, unless they are meant to offer SUPPORT to all MtF crossdressers? Support, in this case, does not mean putting down people like me, who are simply crossdressing for pleasure – we exist, and we have a right to exist, and we also have a right to point out when we are being wronged by people who should know better. If this is what the “community� is like, it’s much better to be outside of it, if you ask me...

I keep thinking of an analogy, but few may understand it. I’m a professional artist of some repute, definitely not an amateur. In other words, I have a lot of expertise. I’ve been an artist ever since I was a young boy; in fact I just naturally became one. This is a little like knowing you’re transgendered since an early age, but bear with me. Let’s say I go on a discussion forum for artists, the majority of them amateurs, and there are lots of photos of amateur paintings with glaring mistakes, yet the artist is hoping for some encouragement. Granted, being an artist doesn’t carry the same stigma that being a MtF crossdresser does (especially in this place and time), but artists can sometimes be considered perverts by people who are bereft of sensibilities. In this instance, how WELCOME do you feel my acidic, critical comments would be, meant to either derail the amateur or point out that they need to start thinking seriously about what they’re doing? “Get out and paint before a live model, go to art school, get some decent materials, stop kidding yourself...� and so forth. This would theoretically make me feel better, I suppose, but, since I have a conscience, I do not wish to hurt the feelings of the amateur artist, so I would not “come down� on them in this manner. At the end of the day, what YOU’RE trying to do is not the same as what I’m trying to do, OK? Also, I choose to crossdress, and you may not, so please factor that into the equation...

I think I may have written the longest post somewhere along the way, but I’m not going to look at post #71 and see if I’m right. BTW, this has been discussed before, but I ignore certain people to avoid flame wars. The way things are around here, it can be a lot like shoveling water uphill, and I have better things to do with my time. There are obviously a lot of nice TG MtF crossdressers, but there are a few who denigrate the “amateurs� and bring us all down...
:straightface: [/SIZE]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

Veronica, post 71 has got to be the title holder for longest post on CD.com. You even out did me :)

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Yes Lorileah, I think hers is the longest post on cd.com, but done with multi quotes, but there is one undisputed record holder on here with the longest post with no interruptions, bar none. Do any of us know who that would be? I do. She can do a whole page with a response. I say Veronica is in second place.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frédérique

Too bad I can’t see it. This is one of those threads where half the participants are being ignored by yours truly for one reason or another, mainly because it’s the same old “I’m miserable, and I hate you for being so happy” diatribe.

---

hard to have a discussion if you don't have the whole picture then isn't it?

Quote:

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Dearest Lorileah - don’t you think that I KNOW the difference between a crossdresser, a transgendered person and a transsexual? I’ve been here a while now, discussing the same old topics over and over – maybe you’ve noticed me.

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I have noticed you, you are prolific. However your post that I was referencing was implying that TG was more TS than CD...I was just pointing out, as others which you have probably blocked have pointed out, TG is the umbrella term for any one from Drag queens to TS and every one in between who present in any manner as the opposite gender.

Quote:

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she is pointing out that certain MtF crossdressers live in shame, and the latter have to start asserting themselves, the sooner the better.

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Her opinion. Just as valid as anyone's

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What support! What community!

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So you want some one to **** on your back and tell you it's raining? It is her opinion, nothing more, why do you believe she isn't supporting you, she just thinks that things could be different.

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What a sense of belonging I feel whenever I log on to this site, and then peruse this section, where the TG’s

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...I have to break in here again...do you see what you just said? "The TG's" here...so you are covering everyone right? from DQ-TS and in between, you are not asserting that TG's are the TS's? Just clearing that up because it reads that way to me...Ok back to the quote...

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are going to tell you what you’re doing wrong! I’ll tell you, if I was a newbie, trying my best to get in a little crossdressing now and then, I would log off and forget the whole idea once I came in contact with those who are obviously WAY superior to me.

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You are reading way more into it than was said. No one said they were better than anyone else. The opinions were stated that we have experience and when your story is similar, we can relate.

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May I offer a suggestion? How about keeping your thoughts to yourself, unless they are meant to offer SUPPORT to all MtF crossdressers? Support, in this case, does not mean putting down people like me, who are simply crossdressing for pleasure – we exist, and we have a right to exist,

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You are the second person to tell me to get lost in the last week. Know what, you are not getting rid of me any more than you are letting those you believe are after you will get rid of you. By the way, it is raining on your back.

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and we also have a right to point out when we are being wronged by people who should know better.

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That you do and I believe you have. And others have the right to respond. Just as I expect you to respond. That is why this is a discussion. We talk back and forth.

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I keep thinking of an analogy, but few may understand it. I’m a professional artist of some repute, definitely not an amateur. In other words, I have a lot of expertise. ... Let’s say I go on a discussion forum for artists, the majority of them amateurs, and there are lots of photos of amateur paintings with glaring mistakes, yet the artist is hoping for some encouragement. ...In this instance, how WELCOME do you feel my acidic, critical comments would be, meant to either derail the amateur or point out that they need to start thinking seriously about what they’re doing? “Get out and paint before a live model, go to art school, get some decent materials, stop kidding yourself...” and so forth. This would theoretically make me feel better,

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so you would in effect lie to them just to make them feel better and then get shot down later when they have a lot more invested in the "art"

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I suppose, but, since I have a conscience, I do not wish to hurt the feelings of the amateur artist, so I would not “come down” on them in this manner.

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How very kind of you, being an expert and all. I am very good at my profession also. Using words like "amateur" isn't being superior, right? You see how you can take something not meant to be insulting and make it so?

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I think I may have written the longest post somewhere along the way,

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you may be correct at that. You are a prolific writer who is very good at pouring your heart and soul into your threads.

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There are obviously a lot of nice TG MtF crossdressers, but there are a few who denigrate the “amateurs” and bring us all down...
:straightface:

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There is that word again.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

It occurs to me that so many of the photos that fellow forum members here have posted on this site were taken either in motel or in hotel rooms, based on the decor evident in the background. That just underlines again how secretive most of us still are regarding our "strange" hobby. Not just secretive, but downright ashamed, actually...

The more I think about this, the more sad it makes me. Yeah, yeah, we know all the reasons - unknowing or unaccepting spouses or SO's, trapped in DADT relationships, don't want to screw up the kids, freak out the neighbors, relatives, or friends (or frighten the horses, for that matter), fear of confrontations with "haters", fear of embarrassment, fear of losing our jobs etc....the list goes on and on.

And yet, beneath the "girly" clothes, most of us are still good husbands, partners, and providers, concerned and loving fathers (and grandfathers, uncles, sons, brothers etc.), valued employees, friends and confidants to others who don't know this side of us, taxpayers, pillars of our communities, moral and God-fearing individuals, and generally good citizens and net contributors to society.

So why then do we allow this same society to do this to us and go into self-imposed exile just because we are different and don't conform to generally accepted norms?

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This is an excellent post and I applaud you for raising issues we all should think about. And I believe that we can learn a lot by studying the successes of other groups — lesbians and gays, women more generally, African Americans, and others.

Many of us do go out in public upon occasion. Organized crossdressing groups typically have monthly meetings; their members go out to restaurants and entertainment places on Friday and Saturday. But this doesn’t entirely contradict your observations. Such meetings occur out of town. Crossdressers don their feminine attire in a motel or hotel room; they meet in a conference room that is somewhat isolated from other patrons at the hotel or motel; and after two days of semi-freedom they don their male clothing again and drive the 50 or 100 miles back to their home communities.

It would be nice to just go out on our front porches and shout, “Hey, you ungrateful people! I’m going to dress as a lady whenever I want to from now on!� But the scenario described in the previous paragraph is part of the grand compromise we often make with our families and others who believe that they and we would face unwanted consequences if we took those valiant actions.

Still, you’ve given us plenty of good reasons why we deserve to be more accepted than we are in 2012.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

It occurs to me that so many of the photos that fellow forum members here have posted on this site were taken either in motel or in hotel rooms, based on the decor evident in the background. That just underlines again how secretive most of us still are regarding our "strange" hobby. Not just secretive, but downright ashamed, actually...

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My objection to this statement in the OP, as I tried to point out more subtly in post #65 is that while my photos are clearly taken in various hotel rooms I am certainly NOT secretive nor ashamed. I am simply protecting my otherwise wonderful relationship with my wife.

I may be called sensitive but the reference to "most" is what irritates me. There is a clear view in the many posts that "most" who take photos in hotel rooms and put them on the forum are NOT ashamed.

Where the OP has supporters is from the many that would like the world to be a better place for CDers. I am one of those but those taking photos in hotel rooms object to the inference that we are ashamed.

Now if only I could have a photographer following me around I can recategorise myself.

As the OP of this thread, I have watched with increasing interest (and some alarm) not only how many responses it has generated, but also the degree of controversy that it has stirred up. It has led to a lively discussion of a relevant topic - which is a good thing - as well as a cathartic exercise for many of us. The bad thing is that it has also become a bit divisive and polarizing, which is not good, nor was it my intent to have it construed this way.

Clearly, I have struck a nerve in some instances, and equally unfortunately, some posters here have decided to hijack my premise to drive their own agendas. And I have watched with increasing dismay that something of a peeing contest has broken out between Veronica Moonlit, Lorileah, and Frédérique, while Annabelle Larousse and suzy1 have gracefully backed out of the fray after becoming collateral damage in some of the b*tchy exchanges.

But before I continue, let me clarify my own views on this issue:

- Some of you have taken me to task for referring to our crossdressing activities as a "hobby", and felt that in doing so, I have trivialized it. Au contraire - being over 60 years old and having been aware of my transgender and crossdressing inclinations since about age 5, I am fully aware that for most of us, this is who we are and not just an activity that we fell into on a whim. I used the term facetiously, and in retrospect perhaps should have put quotation marks around it to signal my intent more clearly. Mea culpa.

- If the tone of my OP appeared judgemental of those who are still deep in the closet because they are somehow still ashamed of of being crossdressers and of the potential negative fall-out resulting from publicly revealing this side of themselves, that was also not my intent. Been there, done that myself, and it has only been in the last 5 years or so that I have been going out in public en femme. And while each of our respective journeys towards self-acceptance may take different twists and turns, the ultimate end-point may be different, and the time taken to get there may vary considerably, each of us must follow their own destiny and proceed at their own pace. Furthermore, while our personal situations may be similar in many respects, there are also many unique aspects to them as well, so one size doesn't fit all. I "get" that.

And as many of you are aware through my own DADT posts and similar ones, my personal situation is complicated by a wife who also struggles with trying to accept this part of me but we are making progress - although still at a somewhat glacial pace. The fundamental difference is that I have come to accept and embrace this part of myself and move forward - and in my case this involves going out in public en femme with increasing confidence and frequency - whereas she chooses to ignore the degree to which society has come to accept the kind of diversity that we represent, and is locked into a mindset more indicative of societal mores of 30-40 years ago. All I am advocating for those still sitting on the fence about going out in public is that despite our initial fears, once we take that first, intimidating step, we soon realize that all of our previous fears of being "outed" or laughed at were groundless, and that most people won't even give us a second look. Try it, you'll like it! ;)

No, my "rant" was not directed at my fellow crossdressers here, nor to chastise those who are still being secretive about their activities, which in some cases meant that either a hotel or a motel room represented the only "safe" venue for them to indulge in them. My rant was directed primarily at the society that we live in, and which in many cases still casts a jaundiced eye at crossdressers because - unlike gays, lesbians, and even transsexuals - they often simply don't "get" us. And when someone doesn't "get" you, they become wary of you and sometimes see you as a threat of one form or another. We, in turn, pick up on these signals and aid and abet these negative views by becoming brainwashed into believing that what we do is somehow reprehensible or morally wrong, when it is nothing of the sort if viewed logically.

The only way to dispel these views it through education of the public, and the media is doing its part by the increasing frequency in which we are not only seeing this topic being addressed, but also in the factual and supportive manner this information is being presented. Similarly, more and more jurisdictions at the federal, state/provincial, and municipal levels in many Western countries are now introducing transgender-friendly legislation to facilitate our integration into mainstream society. The missing piece here is that we must also do our part to to be out and about, see and be seen, allow "regular" people to meet and get to know us, and in the process, dispel any negative preconceptions or stereotype that they might have harbored in the past.

That's all that I am advocating, but for those who are not comfortable doing this - that's O.K. too as far as I'm concerned. No judgement here, and as I said earlier, I was there once too. And while I have no problem in interfacing with strangers as "Leslie" now, like many of you, I still draw the line at doing this with my extended family, friends, employers, co-workers, or any others who might be in a position to impact my life negatively if they had a bad reaction to my "outing" myself in this way. Too old for this now, too many relationships set in their ways, and too many potential complications. But if I were younger - and given how accepting of diversity the younger generation is - my approach to that issue would be a whole lot different.

All that said, I have a couple of pet peeves that I'd also like to voice here with regard to this thread, and the manner in which some of the posters have responded.

First of all, VeronicaMoonlit, sorry that you felt compelled to proclaim "I'm going to say this from the start...this is a dead horse thread....we've discussed this topic many many times. Not just here but other places as well. So, being one of those people that has seen this topic over and over....I am...annoyed." Maybe you're annoyed - and that's your privilege - but as per your profile, you've been a member of this forum since 2005, and perhaps much of this is déjÃ* vu for you. But many others here are recent participants or newbies, and this may be a fresh topic for them. It isn't always about you, Veronica. And as for the "dead horse" part, well, you've certainly gone to extreme lengths to beat this one to death despite your avowed disdain for said equines, including one marathon post that even others felt was a bit over-the-top.

Now let me tell you what annoys me....

Replying to a thread with quotes and multi-quotes is one thing, but when I see one of my posts commented on line-by-line as if accompanied by the type of Greek Chorus that was a feature of the plays of antiquity and then emerging out the other end as if it had been sliced, diced, and julienned after having passed through one of Ron Popeil's Veg-O-Matics, I take exception to that. Go ahead and comment on my views and posts to your heart's content. In fact, I welcome feedback - both positive and negative - as it can only help me grow as a person. But seeing one of my posts picked apart as though I was handing in an English composition to my Grade 6 teacher for critiquing and marking - well , that's a bit much. What can we expect next, a rating of A, B+, or C- etc. attached to our posts in future?

And Frédérique - in one of your replies, you said "Referencing what I wrote above, you need to know I suspended ignoring you long enough to read this latest rant of yours, if only to verify something to myself. Yup, I was right. Why all the rants of late? Is something bothering you? Hijacking your own volatile vernacular, crossdressing is a wonderful, yet “strange” so-called hobby – why not just crossdress according to your own desires and stop kicking the communal hornet’s nest? Oh, and BTW, thanks for not answering my PM…"

Seriously? Being a tad touchy, are we?

And as for your aforementioned PM - I still have it saved in my Inbox. Your exact quote was "...I’d love to discuss history (or anything else) with you, Leslie! Feel free to PM me anytime..." . Maybe I will, and maybe I won't, but I also I didn't know that there was a time limit attached to that invitation. Mea culpa again, I guess.

C'mon ladies, let's act like grown-ups here, maintain this discussion on track, and keep the unnecessary sniping to a minimum...

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Originally Posted by Leslie Langford

Now let me tell you what annoys me....

Replying to a thread with quotes and multi-quotes is one thing, but when I see one of my posts commented on line-by-line as if accompanied by the type of Greek Chorus that was a feature of the plays of antiquity and then emerging out the other end as if it had been sliced, diced, and julienned after having passed through one of Ron Popeil's Veg-O-Matics, I take exception to that. Go ahead and comment on my views and posts to your heart's content. In fact, I welcome feedback - both positive and negative - as it can only help me grow as a person. But seeing one of my posts picked apart as though I was handing in an English composition to my Grade 6 teacher for critiquing and marking - well , that's a bit much. What can we expect next, a rating of A, B+, or C- etc. attached to our posts in future?

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Leslie, I don't always agree with you, and I didn't on this thread, but I appreciate that you always keep it civil.
But, I wholeheartedly agree with you about some people quoting and picking apart every sentence. I'd much rather see "Nicole, regarding your post # [insert number here], you're wrong about everything you said, because I'm smart and you're an idiot". It's the same message, but so much more efficient.

I have read every post in this thread and cannot help but feel as if some members are "Bullies". It's not a quote but comes across as Either be like me or your of no use to us and OUR cause at all.

I am only out of the closet to my wife that I know of. This does not mean I am also not out to the thousands of people who have seen me dressed totally enfemme when we do go out togeather in public. They just don't personally know me, and I like it just that way. I do not hide in Motel rooms, I go out and strut my stuff but I refuse to be bullied into telling anyone I do not want to know of my crossdressing just to advance the cause of someone else that I don't know.


There is a lot of difference between Going out and comming out and the bullies seem to be speaking of comming out while the OP seemed to be speaking more about going out

Thank you, Nicole and kendra for those kind words of support.

You wouldn't believe the number of forum members who PM'ed me after my last post to also voice their support for the way I pushed back here, but for reasons best known to themselves, opted to do this behind closed doors (so to speak) rather than have their views made public. Maybe they feared starting a flame war, or perhaps they felt constrained by the forces of political correctness and didn't relish being perceived as going against the grain. Then again, maybe they just didn't want to see those posts themselves being eviscerated ;).

Not my place to judge, but I will say this - history has shown time and time again that when dealing with bullies, there really is no option but to stand up to them and confront them if you want them to back off. Diplomacy, polite words, and trying to appeal to their sense of reason or fair play typically gets you nowhere fast...

Nicole, Kendra. Yes, that's right, rally the "Tea Party Crossdressers" against the one who called you on the Hypocrisy of wanting support from this transgendered community from this site on one hand and stabbing the transgendered community in the back with the other. Kendra, plenty of us saw your homophobic comments where you referred to gay people parenting as child abuse, and your near homophobic comments in other threads, don't try to play the martyr here.

Any trans-inclusive statewide anti-discrimination laws in Mississippi or Texas yet? Get back to me when TPC's like you two openly support those in action and deed, admit it to your friends, and when laws like that actually happen.

And Leslie, don't enable them....sure they agree with you when you disagree with my tactics because they can't stand my Yankee Home State of the President Liberal guts (that's really why they're here, to vent their recent frustrations over you know what)....but they disagree with the actual topic you brought up about shame. They are not your allies on this topic or most other ones. They probably think of you a pinko-socialist gay marriage and socialized medicine loving Canuck.

Some time back, ReineD once explained my posting style... and said that criticizing the style....wasn't acceptable....should I ask her to do it again?

I actually responded to Leslie's comment back a ways in private... but I'll post only the things I wrote.

Beginning some of the things I said:

############

I saw the recent post, will probably reply to it tomorrow..but I did want to talk about my posting style now...before you see my response tomorrow. You might want to ask ReineD about it...she did a good explanation of it when it was causing issues with Frederique and Suzy.. I don't have the link to her post handy right now, sorry about that, but I'll do a quick explanation though ReineD explains it better.

As you know...I'm been on these boards for a long time...but before these boards...I was on other ones...and before that, there was USENET.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet

My posting style is the standard posting style on USENET...the etiquette of USENET expected it, and the means people used to post to USENET, mostly e-mail clients....made it the best method. E-mail clients do proper threading and quoting, by default most message boards don't do proper threading.

That's where I learned it. It is used to reduce confusion and mistakes over who and what is replying to whom and which point. Using that style makes it obvious what point is being replied to with a specific response. It' also helps organize thoughts and responses. It's not meant as "picking" or "dissecting". The fact that people here take it as such annoys me, because it shows the lack of "institutional history" online.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

That post of mine is so long, because I'm quoting multiple people! On USENET, multi-posting...meaning posting short messages responding to individuals separately was frowned upon in many groups. In fact, multi-posting...like if I was to post to you and say Lorileah separately, is actually against the rules here. If you post twice or more in a row with no one else in between, your posts will be concatenated or they used to be when the mods were more active in getting stuff done. To prevent that, I multi-quote..which is the accepted standard form of prevention.

You're probably thinking.."I didn't know that", a lot of people don't. One of the reasons why is that this forum has no sense of institutional history anymore. It was different when I joined....there were mods here then who were veterans of USENET...they recognized me right off and sent PM's welcoming me and saying it was good to have me here. I got recognized as an AFer (someone who frequently posted on the alt.fashion USENENT newsgroup that was almost entirely GG's) here by some people because use of a few fashionista terms and meme's common to AF.

I'm a member of another trans-board (Joined before I joined here, it's my primary board) ran by a woman who has written two books about trans-issues...I've never had any problems with my posting style there...course, it's full of oldbies and newbies are expected to learn the ropes in ways they aren't here. It's also a lot more cerebral...which is intimidated to new folk...no "color of panties" or "tights vs. stay ups" threads there....except the ones started by me on april fools day as sly reference to this board. There The trans is....what is sometimes called on the internet: "SRS BSNS" (serious business). On that board, wives/partners know...there is minimal DADT, everyone goes out in public now and then, and even the crossdressers identify as feminists. There is also no "Tea Party Crossdresser" crowd.

So now you know.



I think you miised the point....in this instance Lorileah is "good cop", I'm "bad cop"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_cop/bad_cop

It is more effective than subtle hints or playing all nicey nicey. I've done that in the past...and it doesn't work. I can make all the subtle hints and suggestions I want and they don't get seen....because the vast majority of crossdressers are so "barefoot in the head" that they don't get it unless you hit them over the head with it. I myself had to be hit over the head with it. I've seen it over and over again.

So you come along and tell me my methods suck...of course they do...but I've found nothing better that works with obstinate, fearful transfolk filled with shame and self delusion. I do play nice with some people...I've gone easy on TGMarla for example, though I probably shouldn't have.

There is too much "bad stuff" on these boards...you've seen it or you wouldn't have started the motel shame thread in the first place. We need to start dealing with it and policing our own or we won't get any respect from the partners or society in general.

You may be thinking it's not my call...but no one else is doing it, the mods are pretty much absent and/or clueless themselves, or are so disgusted with CD behavior they have no interest in clearing the trash.



Okay, let me put it this way. Suppose you're new at say....using computers.... wouldn't it be a good idea to learn from the old hands? And shouldn't the old hands share what works, what doesn't and things to look out for.

The problem is, we don't have that here. Plenty of people here actively ignore advice from the oldbies that tells them to stop being deceptive or to avoid certain actions. And then when the oldbie...most of the time it's not even me, is proven right they come back here and whine about the situation their bad actions or foolishness caused.

It may seem mean, or arrogant to you, but I'm trying to prevent future problems as you've seen, I"m all about "Prevention, prevention prevention"....if being harsh will do it...I'll do it..and regret doing it every time.

I'm just doing what was done to me, I bristled against it at the time...just like you and others are doing...but it was for the best in the long run as I have seen. One of my "blunt mentors" was "Lacey Leigh". I learned a lot from her....It was thanks to her I started going out in public and joined a support group. I feel I owe her to pay it forward.



I should have worded that better, I admit, mea culpa. I wasn't really annoyed at the topic or you, but more annoyed that the topic was still something controversial and questioned in 2012. You were absolutely right about the shame and whatnot...but people questioned it and I simply couldn't believe people could be so clueless. Again, it was my fault. But I absolutely did agree with you, which is why I posted.

I think this site needs more analysis and less fluff...but you know that.

My original post really wasn't for you, it was for the others, it was just a stepping stone to write what I did. I agree with you much more often than not

You and I have both seen the "crap" on these boards...so what do you suggest we do about it...nothing? When someone does the "I[m playing while wifey's away" should we say nothing. When someone says "I'm doing hormones on the sly without medical supervision or wife's knowledge" do we say nothing? The noise to signal ratio on this forum is bad enough as it is.

#####################

I freely admit to being arrogant, but not without justification. You can try to bully me into not calling people on their foolishness, self-defeating behavior, homophobia or other things....but I believe that MORE of us need to do that. My methods aren't the best, I know this, which is why I try to find a "good cop" to team up with.

Bad behavior gets slammed by the bad cop, good behavior gets complimented by both good cop and bad cop...it's that simple. I am reminded of The Keeper in the Original Star Trek Pilot episode: The Cage:

"Wrong thinking is punishable. Right thinking will be as quickly rewarded. You will find it an effective combination."

And I'm all about using what works in the long run. If playing nicey nicey worked better, I'd do that...but it doesn't as we can see from this site.

And not a single quote in this post.

Veronica

Let's just face it... Everybody just has to find their confort zone.

Since this thread has devolved into members sniping at each other and has edged into politics it is now closed.