I didn't lie..... contrary to my wife's beliefs... not telling someone isn't lying... imho
Printable View
I didn't lie..... contrary to my wife's beliefs... not telling someone isn't lying... imho
Twenty years ago I was in a Men's therapy group where, by happenstance, three of six guys were closet crossdressers (including me). One guy had not told his wife of 15 years and said he would never tell her because he felt it would hurt her and her feelings about him. He absolutely adored his wife and did not wish to hurt her or their relationship in any way. I hope he was able maintain that stance as I'd hate to think his wife ended up feeling betrayed by him as I know was not the case.
That said, I think those who say a willful omission is not a lie are playing semantic games.
Many years ago I was stockbroker. When selling, under corporate pressure, a product that I was less than thrilled with, I often thought that the most important thing in the sale wasn't what I said but what I didn't say. Why? Because what I knew but didn't say would have killed the sale. Is this comparable to holding back on telling about your CDing? Maybe not exactly, but this is an essential piece of yourself which I think you owe the person you are marrying - it's too big a deal to hold back.
I think that depends on the motivation. If the reason you didn't tell is because you knew it was going to be a problem, it's a bit different than an inadvertent omission. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Karren Hutton
My SO doesn't think I'm a bad person for not telling her earlier in our relationship, and yes, she had to drag it out of me when she suspected. She was very hurt that I kept something important from her, and that hurt our trust. When somebody keeps something important from you, especially when it's a person you love and care for deeply, you have to wonder what else they're keeping from you. It's human nature, and I don't blame her for it one bit. I'd feel the same way.
"Coming out" to her has probably been the best thing I've ever done. Not because she's super in love with the dressing, but because I've been able to remember what it's like to not have any secrets, and our communication is so much better as a result. It's taken a lot of work to get there, and we're by no means perfect, but it's been worth it.
I am really enjoying this thread. I am also of the camp that believes that not telling is definitely not lying. If anyone wants to argue go find me the dictionary version of that definition. I am not saying that not telling is necessarily good either. To me it depends on the circumstances and all the details that we never really know as members here based on a few posts by someone.
The reason I do not like others calling not telling a lie, is that the word, "lie" in itself always has negative connotations. The initial thought, which many times is very difficult to change, is that the liar did something wrong. The "liar" is labeled as a bad person immediately, whether stated overtly or hinted at in comments by others. However, when someone holds back on telling, sharing important information about themselves from the other party to an important relationship, it does not necessarily mean that they are being bad and should be shamed as many like to do here to those who do not tell. I am not saying that one should not tell. I always think that telling is the best route. However, no one lives in the shoes of the other person and cannot know all of the reasons why someone does not tell. I believe that there are certain situations where telling may cause more harm than good, if both parties are in a happy and very workable relationship prior to the big reveal. Each person needs to decide for themselves when is the best time, if any to tell, and also be ready to deal with the consequences of their own decisions.
Well by the definition of some. I am definitely a liar and I'm beginning to feel that they have a point. Because I accepted that I was TS and actually came out to some people before I even met my future wife. Indeed even my motivation for starting to date was in a way to prove something. I had no intention of getting married and never actually expected anything to come of it. I didn't tell her then because it wasn't a consideration as I expected it not to last. I suspect if I told her she would have ended the relationship and as I was enjoying her company. I really didn't want that to happen, still don't.
But it did last and I ended up getting married. Believe me no one was more surprised than me to end up at the altar and later have two kids.
I remember when I did come out a friend. She commented that 'At least you weren't married when this came out.' Well that changed.
To be fair I have stated before that I believe she has an inkling. She knows I've bought and worn women's clothing. Indeed I gave her some when I realised they didn't fit me. She's called 'A bit of woman' on occasion. She told me that when we were dating that she thought I might be gay because I wasn't behaving the way she'd experienced in other men. Somehow though I don't think she wants to know because she doesn't want to deal with it directly. This I believe because I know her by now. She avoids situations.
So I'm left between a rock and a hard place. Guilty for not telling her but frustrated I cannot tell her.
There's no easy answer.
I posted this on here more than 6 years ago and it's still relevant now.......
All too often with us C/Ders it always has to be about US,how WE feel,about OUR feelings,why can't our SO's accept US......yadda yadda yadda ! To read some of the posts on here it's plainly obvious that a lot of us never get out of our own arses.....and i'm included very much in this category.
Sometimes it would do all of us a lot of good to have a good look at ourselves,stop being so selfish (me me me,what about me!) and try to look at CDing from other peoples (SO's) perspectives. Some SO's can accept it,some can't but no point complaining about it if they can't accept their man wearing a dress.
My best friends are CDers,a nicer bunch of folks you would never meet but the "me myself and I " syndrome comes across loud and clear. I know it's not easy and lots of us have sad tales to tell and some have had crappy lives because of folks finding out and being outed etc etc but that's no excuse to blame SO's for what is still(and you can like it or not) regarded by most folks as a perversion.
Sometimes maybe we all need to have a reality check....It's a hell of a lot to expect our partners to go along with/accepting us wanting to look like a girl......sometimes,just sometimes taking a step back and having a wee think about their feelings would do all of us the world of good
I told 1st date..been together now for years...i personally dont give a **** what you do..bottom line is if you dont tell she will find out..you will leave something out that she will find..oh well its your problem..enjoy it when she finds out-and she will believe me..my wife unit still amazes me after all these years with what she does (seriously you mowed the grass with no oil in the engine sorta thing) and what is actually going thru her brain...I recently donated my forms to breast cancer survivor charity and it was one of best days ever for the both of us that i/we did that..we both went out and celebrated with her buying me some nice stuff later on...keep lying to yourself and i dont give a damn anymore on those who come in here crying about why there SO has an issue..Cd'ers some times make the dumbest decisions like new coke formula dumb decisions...
We can and have (those who did not reveal early on, myself included) been very clever with semantics about not actually lying. I find it hard to think that someone who has actively crossdressed and kept it a secret from an SO for a number of years has at some point not crossed the actual lie barrier. But EVEN if somehow it has/had been accomplished, does that make what we have or more aptly have not said any better?
So often comes the gripes about how we have had to live secret lives and hide our desires and activities from the general society. Yet, IMO, far too many here are making acceptable excuses for doing the same exact thing with our SO's. They have bared all to us but we have not reciprocated back. And whatever you want to call it, our relationships were or are being lived under false pretenses.
I just truly believe in my heart that our SO's deserve to know everything about us if they have made strong and most often lifetime commitments to us. They should get all of the facts about who we are. They should be allowed to make that choice to commit based on as much information about us as there is to make. And we should expect and do from them.
But what so many of us who are excusing our poor choice in not telling seem not to even realize, is that we in fact only cause ourselves more grief and anxiety. Of the active crossdressers who had or have not told, how much effort gets put into keeping it a secret? A lot of hoops get jumped through wasting precious time in life that could be spent doing more productive things, let alone the freedom to dress without the high anxiety and stress. Even if one is in a DADT relationship, removing the anxiety stress and fear of being caught is so much of a relief.
While there are and have been some who will take that secret to the grave, most likely it will get found out one way or another in the end anyway. And when it does the relationship will suffer a setback. It may never fully recover from the setback and it may destroy the relationship altogether.
The anger, betrayal, the fear, the disconnect our SO's feel is not from the CDing itself, but of finding out later on after a commitment has been made. One thing my wife said to me that really hit home about all this. She bared her soul to me and trusted me with everything about her life. And one of the things that hurts her most, and tears came when she said it was that I did not trust her with telling her.
The amount of negativity that comes from not telling our SO's so outweighs whatever positive if any that comes from not telling. I guess the only positive we can really get is to make it easier for ourselves in the early going to get our SO's to commit to us. But that early easy road so often comes back to bite us so hard in the end with the hurt we cause. We love them so much and we would never want to hurt them with. But, with not telling about our crossdressing and when they do eventually find out we end up hurting them so much more. And all we have accomplished for ourselves is placing more limitations on ourselves with added stress and anxiety along the way.
As the wife of a CD who didn't find out until after 20 years of marriage, I have to say this is an interesting post.
IMHO, I was LIED to. Sugar coat it how ever you want, but keeping a "secret" of this magnatude is a lie. You didn't say you liked a gift she gave you, even if you really didn't. Tell her she looked great even when you didn't think so. You KEPT an important part of yourself from your SO.
Does my head understand the "fear, shame and guilt"? Yes. I have even cried thinking about what my husband has been through. The pain and shame and guilt.
Does my heart understand how he could keep it from me? LIE to me for so many years? NO! He knew and knows all aspects of me - the good, the bad and the ugly so to say. I was and have been completely honest with him. He was not.
Does this make him some kind of evil, unforgiving, bad person? Hell No. But to say not telling your SO by omission not a LIE is offensive and like a slap in the face. And one sure fire way to make your SO not trust you.
It's been a year now since I found out. A hell of a years. A year of me trying to "catch" up to where he is. To get to know her as I can. A year of trying to figure out where she fits into our family and marriage. A year of me trying to trust him again and not think everything these past 21 years were a lie. My CHOICE was taking away by his so called omission. My choice to marry him, have children, live the life we have lived. If I had known the truth it may have been different, but then again it may have not. I will never know what choice I would have made. And that hurts and can damage a marriage.
And I leave those who haven't told a question:
How can you live a lie? Why would you want to live a lie?
Life is to short and beautiful to be anyone other than who you are. Whether with someone or alone. Live the beautiful life of being who you are.
TanyaR is exactly right. We can rationalize it all we want, but keeping something as big as crossdressing secret from a potential spouse is lying about who you are in a very fundamental way.Quote:
Originally Posted by TanyaR
I've commented on this thread before. I, and the people who read my post (if they understood it correctly), know how I feel about this. It is too harsh to say that not telling our partners is simply lying. But it isn't incorrect to say that a cd not telling their partner is withholding the truth. Does not disclosing the truth amount to lying? I don't think it does. At worst, it simply amounts to not being totally open. A lie on the other hand would be a misdirection. For example, a partner says "are you a crossdresser", and you reply "no", that would be a lie. Yet a partner never asking if you were a crossdresser would never result in you having to answer a question that has never been asked.
It's clearly not as simple as that. The presumption will be, from our partners, that we don't crossdress. It simply won't be a thought that would have entered their mind, hence why they would never ask such a question. But even if the question hasn't been asked, then we (the cd), isn't being open, isn't being totally honest about who they are, so by that definition alone, we are with-holding a truth about ourselves. And it is a truth about ourselves that, if it ever came out, would result in our partners looking at us very differently. They may accept us after this truth is revealed. They may not. But the bottom line is, the inescapable fact is, in holding back a truth about ourselves to our partner, we are holding back a significant part of our character.
And that is where the problems start. The problem with our partner accepting us. I got some flak from Isha earlier in this thread for saying what I'm about to say, but I'll say it anyway. It is better to be honest, right from the start. I understand that for many, that time has long been and gone. But for those, they are faced with a situation that isn't ideal. Meaning that they have to make the most of the situation in which they do reveal themselves.
I, personally, can not escape my own view. I regard my crossdressing as nothing to be ashamed of. As nothing that I have to hide. It is a part of me, it is a significant part of who I am. If people don't accept this part of me, then they can never accept me totally. So long ago I came to the only logical conclusion I could. And that is - be honest about who I am, and if others accept me, then great. If they don't, then that's their problem, not mine. It took me a while to reach that stage, but hand on heart, I am so much more happy for it. I am now an open book. My advice would be for all of us to try and reach that stage. For not only will it result in surrounding yourself with people who accept you, it will do wonders with you accepting yourself.
I can sort all this out for you. :)
What people are doing when they don't tell... is Deceiving someone. They are NOT lying, they are being deceitful.
OK make it a sticky then we never need to have this conversation again :)
Thank you.
Unless a lie was told, not a lie. Go read it in the dictionary. Withholding very important information is not good either. One might react the same when a lie is found out or withheld information is revealed, but .. they are two different definitions. That is what part of this thread is about, as I understand the thread.
One is meant to deliberately mislead, while the other is meant to deliberately hide and not share. End results may be the same, while reasons may not be.
I am not trying to diminish or understate the pain, et al, that one may feel when the hidden is revealed. I am just trying to clear up a poor mis-use of definitions, one of which many times carries unwarranted negative connotations.
Julie York raises a very good, and very literal, point. A point that is hard to ignore.
It is however a point that gets right at the heart of the semantics of it all.
When a partner, who has just found out that her SO is a crossdresser, accuses her partner of lying to her, what is she actually saying? Where does her problem lie? If her partner says to to her "but I never lied to you", would she respond by saying "well no, you actually didn't, so that makes everything ok", or is she more likely to respond by saying "that's immaterial, you're not the person I thought you was"?
The point is that semantics only play a part. And the part they play only has any significance in the cold light of day. Never in the heat of the emotion. The point being that we can twist it, justify it, label it how we want - doing so is to be literal. But being literal doesn't sit at all well with the emotional. And it's the emotional that we'll all have to deal with should such a time come.
A point which answers AllieSF's point - yes - Alllie is right - we can all go and read it in a dictionary. Unfortunately however, we don't live our lives by dictionary defintion. Meaning that such replies are simply moot.
I NOW understand what the difference is in the dictionary. Thank you for clearing up the fact that he was only dishonest for 20 years, not lying about a part of who he really is.
I will make sure to add "ask if he is likes to cross dress" to the list of questions I tell my teenage daughters to ask the guys they are dating. That was one question I never thought to ask.
TanyaR - who is your post aimed at?
So Allie, you know my situation. After 20+ years, I came clean. My wife was not equipped to even ask if I was a cross dresser when we first started dating. It simply is not in the realm of possible questions. So while I withheld the info, had she somehow asked, I would have lied, way back when. I am sure that any other cross dresser would do the same until they are ready to come out. So, even though I was not asked, I know I would have lied. Withholding any significant information is no different than a lie, even if a different verb has to be used. Maybe that's the rub of the semantics.Quote:
Originally Posted by AllieSF
Jennixx - no one per say.
Just found it amusing getting the "dictionary" reference.
Some one made the point about if we didn't ask if they were crossdressers. I know I never did. Lol.
I also must have been typing as you were posting. As I didn't see yours until now.
Sorry I forget how sarcastic I can be sometimes.
Thanks Tanya.
I agree with you. And the "dictionary" reference is amusing at best, completely irrelevant at worst.
I think both you and I are on the same page. Figuratively speaking, of course! :)
x
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie York
I love these posts for two reasons. The first Julie is looking at it from a very MALE stand point. Logic and literal definition. Great in sales, pretty good in politics (I did not have sexual relations with that woman) but not so good with real live people who we should care for.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenni_xx
Jenni shows it from the female side. Where words can and do have alternate meanings. The sky can be blue or it can be azure or it can be sky blue. Subtle maybe but not as sharp delineation. Also so many here don't see how it does effect the SO...the one who has her (his maybe) world where they think they know their spouse. And I also agree that it would be very rare for the CD to never actually definitively lie. I pointed this out earlier. When you get caught...the first time...many tell one of two lies. The most common? "No, I don't dress...I did it on a lark...it was just the one time." Which leads to the second REAL lie. "I will never do it again." So if we want to stay literal, how many CDs told one of THOSE lies? So it is a lie when you are confronted and you deny...Hmm:thinking:
and I want to make the next point really stand out...for all those who were selfish enough to think of their own happiness and disregard their SO'sQuote:
Originally Posted by TanyaR
I have been on the receiving end of that when my GF didn't think I could handle some information. Let me tell it hurts, it hurts just like the worst physical injury you males here have ever felt in a sporting event before you got your cup.Quote:
If I had known the truth it may have been different, but then again it may have not. I will never know what choice I would have made. And that hurts and can damage a marriage.
and the most salient quote of the day...thank you Tanya:clap:Quote:
Life is to short and beautiful to be anyone other than who you are. Whether with someone or alone. Live the beautiful life of being who you are.
Here's another way to look at it. A lot of women don't understand their husband's desire to masturbate. Their husbands often find ways to hide that act (staying up after the wife goes to bed, for instance, or getting up early). But when the husbands get caught, it usually doesn't end the marriage. And the wives don't usually say, "you're not the person I thought you were."
Similarly, with crossdressing, if the guy can explain to his wife that this is a small but necessary part of his life, and he won't do it when she's around, and it's not even that unusual... I think many wives would be okay with that. And I don't necessarily blame CD'ers who keep the CDing to themselves, as long as it's a minor part of their lives (since I think their wives would prefer not to have to think about this minor but icky trait).
The problem comes when the CDing blows up from a minor, easily hidden part of life into a major obsession. At that point, no wonder the wives feel that "you're not the person I thought you were." If he wanted to spend all his free time masturbating, wearing diapers, or locked in a dungeon (or any other non-socially acceptable form of adult play), she would also be upset that he had changed into a different person than the one she thought she had married.
So keep your CDing to a minimum, and it barely matters whether you reveal it or keep it private. But if the CDing becomes a major part of your life, then realize it won't stay secret, and try to consider how best to bring it up with her, to reduce the chances she feels deceived, and increase the chances she comes to see it as a fun way to spice up your marriage.
I agree with Jess and I've said it before effectively CDing is effectively a hobby, like any other hobby men do. But with often complex motivations and indeed implications for the women in their lives.
Of course if it was just like Golf and socially acceptable if not always understood. We wouldn't be having this debate. It isn't.
Part of the problem is people like me, whose reasons for crossdressing are more fundamental than something interesting to do at the weekend. Then there's others for whom crossdressing is a fetish and a sexual thrill. Neither is particularly palatable to the average spouse.
All too often the key to understanding and tolerance is knowledge and experience and crossdressing is not something the average person knows about or experiences. Neither do they want to and we shouldn't expect them too.
To those who suggest being upfront is the ONLY way to go. I disagree. No two people's lives are the same. There is no one size fits all solution. This is not a soap opera with a storyline and a resolution. This is life. My experience of family members who know about me is that they simply don't want to face it or discuss it. They haven't rejected me or changed their attitude to me in an overt way. They know about it but it's as if it never happened. It's 'Don't ask, don't tell' if you like.
As for my wife. I believe she has a similar attitude, she knows but doesn't want to know and frankly it doesn't change her view of me. But I can't be sure. I have to temper my desire to be accepted with her implied denial of it.'You're a man' she said to me the other day in relation to some issue and that's what she wants from me. She's right, she married a man and whatever my demons that's what she wants. A man who can do all the man things and yet be a stay at home homemaker and cook, clean and look after the children while she works. I don't think she's unreasonable even if I wish I could express my real self more.
But life isn't like that. It's all about compromises.
So if your hobby is say...trains and you spend thousands on said trains but you don't tell your wife...its OK?Quote:
Originally Posted by mariehart
But you have not asked her. How do you know it isn't boiling under the surface? And if she "knows" then somewhere along the line you did discuss it...right? You are guessing what she thinks again. Sort of like the train engineer who was describing the derailment..."we were going along fine I thought and the the next thing I knew...bang...we were here"Quote:
As for my wife. I believe she has a similar attitude, she knows but doesn't want to know and frankly it doesn't change her view of me.
It does take two to compromise I think...two people with ALL the information to allow for a compromise. If only one has the information it isn't fair. It is one taking advantage of the other. But then again, that is how the world in the US and most civilized countries run. One side has the chips the other thinks they have an even playing field.Quote:
But life isn't like that. It's all about compromises.
In this case, we assume, she "knows" and has chosen (her choice) to let it ride as a DADT. Have you ever actually talked about it?
But Jess, every woman knows that men do this. It may not be discussed and it may repulse, but there is no surprise in the fact that it happens AND most importantly it is normal. No woman thinks, "men cross dress." Cross dressing is totally foreign and therefore quite different from your example.Quote:
Originally Posted by JessM.
If you spend too much money or time on trains or golf, don't blame trains or golf. Blame spending too much.
If a man fulfills all his manly duties: provider, chores, parenting, man-in-the-bedroom-husband, etc. but also likes to spend a little private time dressing up, and the wife knows but prefers not to know, what's the frickin' problem? They have settled into a arrangement that they are both comfortable with, even if that arrangement was not openly negotiated. They both know the deal. Is it really necessary to have that frequent open discussion about CDing that neither really wants to have, just to say you didn't lie?
I never was asked, so I didn't lie. But yes, I know now that I should have told before I married, but I honestly believed my sexual energy would be re-directed towards my bride and that the CDing desire would go away. Sure, I was wrong, but not dishonest. Many of us have found ourselves in that situation where we didn't tell for honest reasons. We know that now, and we'll be the first to say "at some point, when it is getting serious, tell her".
When you're up to your waist in quicksand, it doesn't do any good to hear "you shouldn't have walked there".
But you should accept the rope that is thrown thrown and/or warn others not to go there...:)Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleScott
and again you make the assumption that the SO knows...you don't know they know. Main point here is that they should have the right to be in on the decision early in the relationship. Meh :idontknow: so few here can see the other side, they see what they want to see and they think they know what the SO would want. Think for a minute, if your SO controlled everything assuming they knew what you wanted...
OK doesn't matter, the ground has been covered, the quicksand pit is there and the signs have been posted. I assume you know not to walk there.
But that verges on sophistry. It's not trains. I do have a sort of hobby. I don't tell her what I paid for it. Most men know that their women don't get their enthusiasms. My sister in law's husband is into tractors, farm tractors. She has no interest but it results in him and her travelling around the country visiting interesting places and yes occasionally viewing Massey Fergusons. But mainly it's a weekend away. I personally think an interest in farm tractors is more odd than dressing in women's clothes. But hey that's just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
No I haven't asked her. There's a good reason for that and it's to do with her family background which is highly conservative. It isn't boiling under the surface. What mostly boils with her is her career which is intense because of her position in the hospital she works for. She comes from a family of high achievers, six sisters and two brothers. That is what motivates her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
No, she has 'indicated' she doesn't want to go down that road. We both watch a programme called 'Ladyboys' about Thai Ladyboys. We both talk frankly about it and it's clear she knows the subject as I do. She is after all a Medical Scientist. But neither of us cross the line and bring to subject to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
This is a frustration for me. But I know the woman and I love her enough not to distress her after all her career is what's important and appearance is vital.
Gee, did Lori suggest the "model train" straw man to begin with? I don't think so.
I see repeated rationalizations by males who what to cling to the notion that its ok to hide their little hobby from their wives. I understand that a person can withhold information because they are wracked with guilt, confused about one's identity, or clinging to the hope that "it might go away".
I am more troubled by what seems the condescending notion that a person is doing their spouse a favor by hiding information from her, or presuming tacit acceptance because the subject is never formally broached.
You might presume that the person knows the woman they married and can read the signals. That's not condescending that's understanding.
Several times I read here that the marriage fell apart when CDing was admitted. Really is that true? Is that ALL that was involved? Like the story of the man who admitted to his wife he was Cree Indian because he loved her so much and he was sure she would understood, only to find she barricaded him out of her life. Really? He lived with her all those years and didn't know she hated Indians and that was all that persuaded her to close him out and NOTHING else? He knew her so little that he assumed she would understand?
Marriages fall apart for all sort of reasons. There is never one reason but often there is the famous straw and the camel's back. I worked in aviation and when it comes to accidents there is never one reason, always there is a string of situations leading to the incident. It's the same in life. If a relationship is strong no one problem leads to a split. If it's not, it's an accident waiting to happen.
My point, such as it is. Is that there is no one size fits all solution. I could simply tell my wife tomorrow how it is. In the walled garden of this forum the result would be merely interesting. In my life it could be devastating or it could be positive. I simply don't know. It's a gamble I'm reluctant to take.
Marie, if the apocryphal Cree Indian was rejected by his wife because of who he was, did he make a mistake in assuming she would place her knowledge of him above her prejudices? Would he have been wiser to continue to hide his identity, lest she "learn the worst"? What if she accidently came upon proof of his origins?
As you say, accidents of all kind happen and often there is no singular cause. I'd submit that you're gambling with each day that the secret remains hidden. If you fear your wife's prejudices may be as deep as the woman in the story, then you really have only a few choices. First, hope you never make a mistake - no unforeseen circumstances, no omissions or errors in hiding yourself. Second, abandon and suppress your CDing as deeply as your capable of doing and thereby assure there will never be an accidental exposure. Or third, find a way to introduce this part of yourself to your spouse as a calculated risk.
Wow . . . talk about a thread polarizing a debate. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one. :)
The original point of my thread is that we get it . . . we lied or as some have said, been deceitful, withheld truths and just been all around bad girls . . . go stand in the corner. :devil: Each of us has to live with the consequences of that decision (good or bad) and each will have to find peace the best way they can. But that is for us and not the collective moral majority to deal with. Do I regret what I did? Yes. Do ensure my wife knows I love her? Always have and always will.
There is a fundamental difference between sharing your views on this subject with those who have not come out. Specifically "learn from my mistakes" or "here is a suggestion which may help you" or "we are here to support you whatever your decision is" from "you need to come out right now or suffer the consequences because I know best".
The problem with advice is that it can be dangerous to people holding out a hand for help. Like a drowning swimmer they reach out and grab it because they see it as a lifeline, no questions asked or thought given. So if advice givers brow beat someone to come out before they are ready and they do and it goes very bad what do you loose? Nothing. What does that person loose, perhaps everything because it wasn't the correct time to come out.
Here is a hypothetical moral debate for those who think they have all the answers. How would you feel if that person who you shamed to come out early looses everything and then decides to end their life or the lives of others? Chances are you won't know because that person will just cease to exist on this forum. Being somewhat educated on the human psychological condition, don't assume that everyone who gravitates to this forum is psychologically sound. Bad advice regardless of the moral reasoning could be just enough to ruin a person's life and cause a psychotic break. The moral high ground is fine but temper it with wisdom and caution because sometimes thing look very simple from such a high position.
I fail to see what all this "us" "them" gets any of us. Isn't the intent of this forum, support, constructive advice and a mutual good time? Not, trying to make others feel even worse then they already do. If you are one of the few who told your SO right away, take that as a win for yourself, feel good and I only wish I had the courage to do so from the beginning. However, don't use it as a tool to make yourself superior over those who truly want your help and guidance. Use you advice wisely and don't squander it on a personal agenda, that is how people get hurt.
The one post I read which resonates well and perhaps I agree with the most is below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle (Oz)
Actually Kim, Marie has already stated that she is taking a calculated risk by not telling. In fact, all of your 3 options are calculated risks. As always stated, I agree that it is better to tell. However, everyone's situation is unique and each person needs to make their own decision and accept whatever consequences may come from that decision. We do that almost everyday when we make a decision to do or not do something, whether speeding, arguing/discussing a sensitive issue with our boss, or telling our SO about something very private to us. From what I remember from the original OP topic, this thread is not about whether one should tell or not, but rather it is to cut the keepers of the secret some slack and that they are not necessarily evil and bad people. I agree with that request.
Some members here like to jump on people that have not yet told, or to jump on the "I told you so" band wagon after they told or got caught and the SO went ballistic. Some like to believe that crossdressing by itself will never be the prime reason to end a relationship after their hobby is revealed or has been found out. In my 6 plus years here I have read a lot of posts where the relationship ended for just that reason.
PS: I need to correct previous posts above. This thread is not about whether it is a lie to not tell your SO. I got caught up in the side topics generated by this thread. Sorry.
They don't know the content of the porn, and it may upset them as much as crossdressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
My point is that this board gets so caught up in arguing over secrecy/lies, when I think the bigger issue in most marriages is how much energy starts going into the crossdressing. Sure, some wives can't even put up with the idea that their husband ever has the desire to CD. But I think most wives could manage to cope with the idea of a CDing husband, if it stayed a minor aspect of their lives. I think many wives put up with husbands underdressing, for instance.
Might be helpful if you have a B&N acoount but I can't see it. I am VERY suspicious of anything from Zondervon being helpful to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle (Oz)
I'd say the difference is the tractor crowd has a different sort of audience which women/non participatory family members can get on board with, though - tractor pulls (which is truly one of the big points of vintage tractors) generally have the whole family around, so lots of other kids and wives to associate with. CDing quite often is a solitary sort of hobby rather than a group activity. And having said that, I've noted several GG's here who have gone to group meetings with their partners and found it a good experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by mariehart
(Side note, I helped pull apart a WD-40 engine today. Well, I helped manoeuver it in place under the shop winch so someone else could lift off the engine block. Actually, I probably wasn't that much help since I was wearing high heeled boots and I couldn't get much traction. But hey, it got me out of the office for 20 minutes!)
I wonder - since your wife is obviously a very driven person, and very intelligent - if she wouldn't appreciate a more active role in the decision making process behind crafting your part of that image. You know your wife much better than we do, of course, and I'm being an armchair quarterback here - but she sounds like the sort of person who may want to have all the facts of a case put in front of her.Quote:
No, she has 'indicated' she doesn't want to go down that road. We both watch a programme called 'Ladyboys' about Thai Ladyboys. We both talk frankly about it and it's clear she knows the subject as I do. She is after all a Medical Scientist. But neither of us cross the line and bring to subject to me.
This is a frustration for me. But I know the woman and I love her enough not to distress her after all her career is what's important and appearance is vital.
The quandary is (and this is why I don't judge those who have not told their long term partners) - although the 'big reveal' (if it happens) goes much better when the spouse is told as opposed to stumbling across it by accident, that bell cannot be unrung. For that reason, the decision to tell or not to tell is not one which can be taken lightly as it will most likely involve a great deal of pain and a feeling of deception.
I desperately hope that anyone who reads this forum who gets a new partner learns from the collective experiences of everyone here that it is best to let a prospective partner know this is in store for you both as soon as you can trust them with the knowledge; if you can't trust them with this, they don't deserve to be a special part of your life; if you can trust them but don't tell them, the omission is gravely disrespectful of their right to know what they are getting into, and to fully share their whole lives with their partners and vice versa. But for those who went into marriage not knowing these things which are easy to find out now? I feel very badly for them and their spouses both and wish them the best possible resolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleScott
This is the crux of the argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Those who have told their wives with positive results advocate telling. I was told at the very beginning of my relationship and I advocate telling. Like it or not, it IS much easier for a GG partner to accept when she hasn't felt lied to.
But this does not mean that we crucify those who haven't told.
Why are the people who haven't told taking the advice to tell so personally? What's wrong with suggesting that CDers tell their wives/girlfriends early on if their relationships are only starting? A lot of people read these threads and if we can save one marriage from going bust because the wife did not know in the beginning, then that's a good thing.
The baby-boomer generation understandably could not have told at the beginning of their relationships. They did not have the resources that exist today nor did they have the self-awareness. But, in my view there is absolutely no reason for newcomers to the CDing to not disclose it to their partners in the beginning of their relationships. If the girlfriend or fiancée leaves, then a great deal of pain will have been circumvented in the long run.
OK I ask what about the person who keeps it inside, hides for years, gets caught and their wife leaves...with the same result? Which is worse? I have been here a long time. The number of wives who leave when the husband comes out is equal to the ones whose wives leave because they hid it. That is a poor argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isha
And no, most don't get it. Otherwise this thread would have been over long ago. Some still argue they are "protecting" the SO...but they don't see that the SO should have the opportunity to decide if they need protection. I believe most the SOs here are adults, capable of making decisions on their own. I cannot think of any new way to try and show the CDs here that they are being selfish. I have related MY experience many many times, but I guess I will once again for those who are new or have chosen to not read it before.
I had a GF for 15 years. We were doppelgangers in so many ways. I outed myself BEFORE we even met in person. I gave her the choice on that. She accepted it. 15 years, one day she felt something "tear" inside her and within 24 hours she was dead. I found her, called the police, sat through the investigation and questions about her family. She had told me she was never married. I took that for what it was and assumed she didn't have children. I didn't ask. The "not married" was a lie, she was married twice. No biggie, a lot of people have been. BUT I told the police she wasn't. She told me she was 5 years older than I was...she was 9...again no biggie. After 21, what difference does that make? But she also had two children. I didn't ask she didn't tell...BUT I told the police she didn't/ Do I look stupid now? Yes I do. Nothing major, there was a reason I am sure this was to be hidden from me. I will never know. But for several months I felt like literally someone punched me in the gut. OK some here will say "so what. She had her secrets" But you know what not knowing did to me? I looked stupid in front of the police. I looked stupid in front of friends. I missed the opportunity to meet her daughter when she was around. She had to sneak and lie whenever her daughter called. I now have to wonder why she thought I should not know. I wasn't allowed to make a decision on that. Would I have left, no, but she didn't even give me the benefit of saying that myself. That hurts. We were equals supposedly, we were partners. But, I guess everyone has a different idea of equals and partners. Some here still believe they have to protect someone who would really have your back if there was a threat.
Truly, I give up. You all want to justify the fact that you don't trust your spouse enough to share because you can read minds. You don't let them choose if they want to spend the 10-15-20 years with you. Years that if you had told them earlier, you either would have made better together OR they, and you, could have moved on. Made a happy life with no secrets and with trust that was deserving. No, you are all correct here, you know exactly what your spouse would say or do...but you don't trust them enough to decide for themselves.
I will in the next thread about this repeat what I said but right now, I don't care one way or another if you all want to not trust your spouse. Look at the GG responses here. Majority...you have undermined their trust. And you wonder why they won't accept you, why they leave you, why they "prefer" not to hear about it? Why after years of you not trusting them...they no longer trust you. I am outta here.
Reine, your point is well-taken. But it presumes that disclosure won't ruin a relationship, too, and that's where I part company with this line of logic. Yes, if CD is a huge part of your life, one where you will or are spending community money on it and several hours per week, your wife should know. But if this is something you do once or twice every six months? One where you're spending less than most people spend on coffee over the course of the year? No, I don't agree that you "must" disclose. Maybe you should, maybe you shouldn't, but telling people they must when doing so creates a a real strong possibility that you're ending a marriage isn't necessarily the best solution(and even if it does survive, the damage could cause both years of suffering). I just don't see this as good advice for everyone , It's the group-think that I personally detest, that we all have to do something because one or two think we should and that there really is only one way. As for the CD's who have an understanding relationship, where the wife truly does not want to know about the dressing, I say respect her wishes. When the SO wants to know, she will ask, it really is that simple. Wives have hobbies and habits too, and some mine has I'm more than happy to remain in the dark about; they make her happy, I don't get them, don't care to participate in, but they give her an outlet and don't harm anyone.
My point exactly. Most don't get it and most can't see the others pov it is either "my way or the highway" approach. Every person has the right to make their own decisions "right or wrong" and nobody has the right to tell them otherwise. Provide advice, provide support and so forth but don't judge. That's all I am asking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorileah
Isha
Part of the problem here is that the issue is being over polarized. Either we are outright wrong or right. However, I can honestly say that when I met my wife I thought two things; Now that I have a steady girlfriend I will probably quit crossdressing. The other, My crossdressing is a highly personal weird thing that I do on occasion and doesn't bear mentioning. Once I came to the realization that it did in fact not go away, and that as we began building a life together that at one point or another I should share this "weird habit that I originally thought didn't bear mentioning!" It became a stress point, not because I did not have trust or had some disillusion about my uncanny 6th sense, but as to how to bring something up that has been a deeply held secret, and in no small part, an unknown "why" in my own head for most of, if not all, my life. Its not about secrets and lies! Its about the confusion in our own minds. It took me 12 years into my marriage before I felt some sort of reconciliaton with myself over who I am and how I felt about my CDing. Once I accepted myself, it was a hard but honest conversation that took me out of the closet. She did wonder if I had other secrets, but I actually thought about it and said "none that I can think of?" And she is a smart girl, she understands that telling someone you like to dress like a woman is not easy, and she appreciated being told but SHE understood that it was not an easy thing for me to do! She fundamentallly understood why I kept the secret. If you really reflect on this issue, most women can understand this idea. If they put it back in your face and can't get over it and feel they have been led astray perhaps you need to open up to how hard this thing is to explain even to yourself? A bit of understanding on both sides of the relationship are required!
In the context of where my wife and I are at and my hope to move beyond an extreme DADT to some modicum of acceptance the concept of this book looked helpful. For $A9.49 and free shipping I reckon it was worth the investment. Should know in a few days.Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlett
Even if she sees the book and it provokes a discussion it would be well and truly worth buying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
My wife said to me quite categorically that she would NOT have formed a relationship if she knew that my CDing would return (after almost 4 years). But the thing is that we have a beautiful loving relationship. A forever love together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacqueline Winona
I didn't have a crystal ball to know how much CDing was part of me but let's say I did or my CDing never stopped. The cost of disclosure at the start would be two 90% compatible people would never have found true love.
Then there are the tragic marriage failures from the revelation or at the very least the trauma and heartache. These are very real experiences. The flip side to "saving one marriage" is breaking up others.
Thanks Isha for repeating my position - giving advice is so very easy but we don't have to deal with the consequences.
My wife knew about me dressing before we even met due to a mutual friend.
I didn't know that she knew so I had to go through the whole coming out speech needlessly. Cow!
There's no way I could have a serious relationship without telling my partner.
Life is good I wear what I want when I want.
Its not unknown for her to steal my clothes including my favourite new shoes!
Ps now I think about it she wore my white satin ballet flats when we got married.
Exactly. Suppose a wife picks her nose every morning and secretly eats the boogers. It's gross, but it's not harming anyone, and I can see why she might want to keep that secret. Or suppose she exchanges letters once a year with an ex-boyfriend, but they never meet up. Or suppose she fantasizes about her dad while she's in bed with her husband. It's fine with me if she wants to keep that fantasy a secret.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Drawer
Indeed. Once you have the desire to share the secret and to feel accepted by your partner, or you want your partner to participate, or you want your partner to give you more time for your secret hobby, then you have to find a good way to tell them. But as long as it's a very minor part of your life, I don't feel it's a moral imperative to reveal everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Drawer
That makes sense to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacqueline Winona
Jacqueline, if someone puts on panties and a skirt once every three months when the wife is gone, I don't know that I'd call that habitual CDing. I think the need to tell is when the CDing is so frequent that it has become a significant part of a CDer's life.
But maybe we can compare this to points of law. It's difficult to describe and come to a definitive position in a gray zone since motives are so varied ... it's much easier to paint a picture with words when it's black and white: tell or not tell, no matter the degree.
I do believe there are gray zones.
OK ... let's compare this to masturbation. What spouse necessarily tells their partner every single time they do this? I'm guessing few. But, if it becomes frequent to the point where it is on a spouse's mind a lot of the time and they have to purposely and habitually manipulate circumstances so they can masturbate according to their needs, then it's something that is an issue between them. Not the masturbation, but the frequent hiding which does entail a degree of lying or non-disclosure.
I may be wrong, but most of the arguing that has been taking place here is not what the original post was referring to. The question of whether to tell or not to tell has no single answer as every situation is different. What I gathered from the topic was that it was a form of a plea to everyone to stop taking a holier than thou attitude toward those types of topics that do not necessarily have a definitive answer. We make a point of telling everyone to treat each other respectfully, and for the most part that happens. However, every once in a while a controversial subject arises, and while attacks are not made directly against other posters, an indirect attack often does take place. This thread has provided an example of that by the insistence by some that not telling is a lie. By association, that is the same as calling the person a liar. I know that the opening post used the word liar, but it came across to me as a caustic means of highlighting the plea that I refer to above.
When I first read the post, and some of the early replies, I noticed that most of those replies were somewhat understanding of the mentality of uncertainty and shame that leads to continued non disclosure. However, they did not address the plea. In my first response, I talked a bit about secrecy and its impact on our lives and how there is no one answer to such questions that will fit every situation. I closed with a reference to what I saw as the point of the thread by using Isha's own reference saying we should not wag our fingers at anyone for their decisions.
Subsequent posts continued to be mostly understanding of the to tell or not to tell dilemma, but by the middle of the second page were beginning to take on a bit more of a tone that it is always better to tell. Fair enough, but they were still not addressing the primary point about the dangers inherent in the insistence on the "this is the right way" approach. I wrote my second reply, pointing out that because of my age, I grew up in a totally different socio-economic environment than we live in today, or even thirty or forty years ago. It's very easy to use hind sight and say that I should have done this differently or that differently. But hind sight tends to overlook all the unique circumstances we were dealing with back then. Should anyone be considered "bad" for the decisions made on such controversial subjects? Because the fact that modern thinking tends to say that such and such is the right approach to a specific topic mean that the old way of thinking was wrong? Sometimes its best and sometimes its not. Are we heading toward eutopia or oblivion? You will get opinions both ways, because that is what it is all about; opinions.
In response to my second post, Lorileah wrote
Parenthesis were mine for context.Quote:
"Most are doing it (i.e. CDing) on the sly...who sneaks around doing things? People who are doing something wrong, right."
This use of words such as sly, sneak and wrong, left no doubt as to the intent to portray non disclosure as bad or evil, and elevate the unmentioned disclosure to something more akin to saintliness.
Her next line was:
In my post "you must tell" was in quotation marks, making it an adjectival phrase describing people who feel they must tell, not that you must tell people. That changes the whole context of what I wrote.Quote:
... Quick aside here, it isn't you must tell PEOPLE...it is you must tell the one you promised to be honest with forever and ever, ok back to the point
Most of her reply was about TG rights which is not the topic so I will not address them. She concluded by saying:
I apologize to Lorileah for highlighting her post, but did so because I felt that it represented what the opening post was attempting to make its plea about. In an ideal world it would be wonderful if we could disclose all to everyone, especially those closest to us. And if we could also come and go as we please without any fear of losing friendships, jobs, respect, loss of limbs or life, our family or anything else because of our crossdressing. But we do not live in a perfect world. Discretion is often the better part of valour. Many of us are able to suppress our personal desires for the greater good of family, or at least develop our own opportunities for discrete occasional indulgences. By all means tell us your story, how you were able to overcome your personal obstacles, what reactions you received from those you loved, what you are doing to maintain your own personal space and peace of mind. Just don't lecture us and write sermons about how we are going to hell for not seeing things your way.Quote:
Yes it is hard to discard misplaced feelings, unteach wrong feelings, relearn something (and admit, this is all learned response.) But we have in the last 80 years done just that. We know that things we were taught are incorrect.
Veronica
Isha, I think most do get it more than you think. We communicate our thoughts on any matter, but some may not agree with yours or someone elses who agrees with you. They are merely thoughts and opinions. My opinion on this manner is formed by personal experience with my wife, the vast majority of GG's who are SO's and are members here, and of the struggles people have on here when they come out to their wives or GF's after a commitment was formed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Isha
I have actually told my wife many of the "reasons" why I didn't tell her in the beginning. Guess what, it doesn't make the pain she has any less. Yes, she can understand why. She can perhaps feel some sort of relief that I had no master plan to throw her such a wicked curve 3 and a half years into the relationship, 6 months into marriage. But she STILL has to change gears and traverse a path in life she was not expecting or prepared to do. If I had told her, then she would never have had to have done that, and would have been prepared for this different route in life, a path most do not take.
Your title of your thread basically is set up to rationalize what most of us know is wrong. Wrong because lying and or any other way of deceiving our committed partners is simply wrong, regardless of what it is we lie or deceive about. CDing does not get a special pass in my opinion.
Well, I suppose the holier than thou attitude is in the eye of the beholder. I honestly do not read any judgments into the "you should tell" arguments against those who haven't told.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veronica27
Isha began this thread shortly after an unfortunate CDer posted the story of her wife having found out by seeing an undeleted picture on the computer. The wife went ballistic and the CDer didn't know if the marriage would survive. Although telling early on or even just telling as opposed to having the wife find out on her own is too late for that CDer, people still write to the masses when they advise against others finding themselves in the same position.
I'm sure that everyone's heart goes out to that CDer who finds herself in that unfortunate position, but what is everyone else supposed to do ... say "good for you and let's hope that other CDers will find themselves in your shoes"?
Just saying.
You are right ReineD at least from me, and I too have not read into a hollier than thou attitude. I do not think someone who has not told early on and may still not have told to be a bad person based on it. I do think it is not the right thing to do though. That is just my opinion. I would like to hope that we can all share our opinions even when it is not an echo chamber of agreement and not automatically feel someone is attacking us or feeling attacked by doing so.
My opinion is based on support for people who are struggling with whether to tell a new GF, or to tell or not tell their wives or SO's. From the post you highlighted from Veronica27, I will disagree about her saying that at least in this topic not having a definitive answer. I believe when it comes to this topic it is among the most definitive. How we tell may not be definitive. But to tell or not, or what happens after not telling once a commitment has been formed. This is very definitive. And what happened to the CDer who was found out, that is a very definitive consequence when it happens. A very common reaction of Wives and SO's when they discover it rather than it being told to them. The common reactions when a wife or SO is told, especially years afterword. I was no different in that I did not tell and the reactions my wife has had are so typical of others who found out later after committing her life to me. So my advice, my opinion and my support is that not telling is wrong, it causes so much hurt and causes difficulties with relationships and marriages. To avoid this pitfall.
Not saying it deserves a special pass. I am saying that we know it was wrong but there is no need to brow beat people about it. They made their choice (right or wrong) and will have to live with the consequences. How they choose to work through with their wife is their business and not ours.Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
Isha
It is not our business when not asked, but when people come on here to ask or to comment, then it does become our business, it was literally requested to be our business. I don't remember seeing anywhere (correct me if I am wrong) where someone has come on saying they were having trouble in their relationship due to their wife of SO finding out or they finally came clean, and then have other members saying HA! told ya so, ya got what ya deserved! I have not seen that happen.