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Yes Reine, exactly. I think very few marriages end just because the husband admits that he finds it sexy to wear panties or stockings from time to time. Conversely, even a strong marriage would end if the husband can't come out of the pink fog enough to maintain a real connection with his wife. No connection = no marriage. (Assuming that the wife will have an instant connection with the female persona -- that's a fantasy.)
A lot of CD and TS blame all their life problems on their gender variant status.
When I was still in my Cd stages, my ex said that was the reason she wanted out but we had a lot more problems than just that. I don't think CD'ing alone would cause it.
Keep in mind also that while the image some CD/TS get is - "She found out yesterday and filed for divorce today" is seldom the case. Usually it is months or years of turmoil before the relationship is ruined.
Wow...so many topics:
1) Someone discovering they are CD (regardless of initial gender) is certainly not necessarily the end of a relationship, and certainly not mine. I was 55 and married 34 years when we discovered Tina. We were both shocked, and fascinated, and curious as heck. We both knew I was the same person 10 min before and 10 min after discovering Tina, so the question was only, "who is Tina?".
2) Realizing one is CD does not necessarily mean we are not manly men for a large part of the time. In my own case, when my wife wants her man, you can be sure she gets him. But there are times that she specifically invites Tina for a visit as well!
3) So this brings me back (as with Reine's post) what aspects are we talking about that are a problem, especially in established relationships? The "hiding" aspect has to be a big issue. When one spouse is not given all the details that they think they deserve in order to make a relationship decision, they are going to be upset. There will be some SOs who will find it all fascinating, and some might even see that they have "leverage" over their CDing hubbies because of it, but there will be some who, for whatever reason (and there certainly are many possibilities) will be at least intially turned off and outraged.
4) And lets not forget those relationships that are strengthened by having (suddenly or not) a CDing hubby. Those success stories get swept under the rug, and they are all less sensational, but they do happen. A part of that is education, where a surprised spouse begins to realize that there are real advantages to a CDing hubby. Without a doubt, those of us who are the recipients of that acceptance are incredibly dedicated to our spouses!
I love these topics with no definitive answers :)
Sharing is caring. So I would suppose that the partner that is excluded from the activity feels that they are being denied entrance to that part of their lovers life. Kinda like having sex with the light turned off all the time. When the light finally comes on we are afraid they won't like what they see.
Kristy,
Leaving and telling everyone including work sounds rather vindictive to me. If that's what she's like then exactly why are you still with her? (Rhetorical question, I'm not looking for an answer!)
If anything the cding was used as an excuse to end the marriage although it wasn't the true reason... My ex had used it time after time as an excuse as to why our marriage failed .She wasn't faithful in our relationship, several times in fact, but the excuse was because of what I did( give me a break).. Yeah ..It's an excuse because she knew of my cding before we married 25 years ago and said it wasn't an issue she was fine with it until the end..
Now she can not stay in a stable relationship she seems to attract losers who do not work ,drunks and druggies..
Can it be solely responsible for ending the relationship = YES
Will it probably be responsible for ending the relationship = NO
According to some of the best surveys of wives of cross-dressers about 20% of wives find cross-dressing to be completely repulsive, disgusting, and such a turn-off that they can never look at their man as a normal, healthy, sexual partner - ever.
Fortunately most wives are more tolerant. Most wives need a man to hold and love them. They need a man who will protect them and make them feel secure. They need a man they can respect and honor. If you are that man, and you love, protect and respect your wife, then you're odds are pretty good.
http://www.tgforum.com/wordpress/ind...e-ii-report-3/
This is one of the best articles I've ever read. Thanks for sharing! It's good to see someone doing some actual research is this area, rather than all the personal conjecture that seems to have popped up on this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Confucius
Sad part of it is and great article BTW, I never dressed as I do today and didn't dress while she was around while we were together..I can go with the 20 percent as a few GG's mentioned on this post, that some get way to involved ( pink fog) ..But I never did it was always about the family,providing ,and being the best father I could and my children respect me for that now that they are grown.. I can not say that so much about their mother..She was more like a friend to them than a responsible parent and as they got older they started wondering about why they and mom stayed at a motel with a strange man when they were in their pre teens..
I think after all the affairs ,cheating and running around behind my back while I was working 80 hours a week to provide her a nice lifestyle drove the urges even higher for me to dress.. I was depressed, heart broken and married to a complete stranger after 10 years.. Those were the darkest times of my life and dressing eased the healing process and gave me the strength I needed to move on..I felt I was the one who abandoned my family and she sure made me feel quilt because of my earlier dressing before we was married ..I never lived it down while with her and now that I am away and my mind is clear,,I know for a fact it wasn't me or the dressing ..It was her needing an excuse she tried to come back a few times after I moved out and by that time I allowed the dressing to happen ..I no longer supressed the urges .. I told her that dressing is now a part of my life that will not go away I don't expect her to accept it and I will never dress in front of or around you but I will be doing it.. She went home and hooked up with her next door neighbor told our son that her and I will never get back together because of my dressing..
In a previous life I was a homebuilder. I can state that more marriages are destroyed during a major remodel or new home being constructed than due to the discovery of a spouse's crossdressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by JessM.
MANY folks have reported in this very Forum that it did. Could at least SOME of them have been lying?
Undoubtedly.
How likely is it that ALL of them lied?
The math is pretty simple unless one has a completely CLOSED MIND. And/or refuses to remove the blinders.
Can drinking alone end a Relationship?
Can drug use/abuse alone end a Relationship?
Can just ONE affair end a Relationship?
Ah yes. This thread.
I know that it is difficult for many here to believe, particularly the supportive GG's here, who are, I think, as a rule, very special women, each and every one of them.
There are a number of reasons I woman might not accept ANY amount of CDing from her spouse:
1. Some women have religious convictions that preclude them EVER accepting a CDing spouse. I'm not sure why there's any debate about this - I've talked to plenty of folks on this forum who've had wives that fell into that camp. It's not super common, but it happens. In that case, I guess we'd have to conclude that CDing alone ended the marriage.
2. Some women have just no flexibility in their views of gender / gender social roles / and sexuality. For most people in the hetero world, these things are NOT independent variables - they just kind of view them as one big lump for their own personal lives, with the exception "oh yeah, gay people have different rules." Some women doubtless can't handle a gender variant spouse without it assaulting her own sense of sexuality. Some women have very rigid views about what men and women are supposed to be and the roles they are to fulfill in a marriage. CDing could easily be more than they could handle, particularly if we're talking someone who fully dresses, forms, hose, wig, shoes, makeup - the whole enchilada.
I have no doubt that my wife seeing me presenting female for the first time vastly accelerated the demise of our relationship. It was just too much change, all at once, for her to handle. It shook her world-view. She depended on me a lot for emotional stability for herself, a guidepost if nothing else, and I turned everything upside down the day I walked out of my study in a dress. (She asked to see me.) She simply never recovered from this. Still hasn't.
One of my least favorite activities on this forum is the game of "oh, you broke up? Your marriage must've totally sucked!" Who the **** are you to judge? You don't know the person in question! You don't know the spouse - you don't know one damned thing except your own experiences and your opinion. And you may not be wrong most of the time - but jesus, have a heart! This is the last thing someone who's going through a divorce needs to hear. Believe me - if it sucked, they'll tell you. A lot. A lot more than you want them too...
To the last, definitely. Of the others you mention, it would depend on the causes of them and the effect of them. Why does someone drink and to what amount? or drugs, which is mostly the same thing. How does this person who drinks act differently when they drink? And lastly, if an S?O was lied to, or if the drinking was completely concealed, that too makes a big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildaboutheels
Really short answer: yep.
Paula, in your case you pretty much say it, too much change too soon. That was a very big key here. Also, you are now transitioning, so she is not adjusting to a change of her husband, but losing him altogether. Women have the intuition gene, and I believe you have stated she knew right away where things were headed for you. She did try, she had hope that she could somehow weather this, but it was too much for her. It would be for many of the accepting GG's here of their partners who are CD's. They still have their husband or BF. You no longer are able to provide that role for her. Understand that this is in no way meant to be negative toward you. I would also agree that in some cases, any gender variance could be a cause of a break up. Most often though, how it is presented, handled, the pace of change and the amount of variance does play a big role in whether a relationship continues.Quote:
I have no doubt that my wife seeing me presenting female for the first time vastly accelerated the demise of our relationship. It was just too much change, all at once, for her to handle. It shook her world-view. She depended on me a lot for emotional stability for herself, a guidepost if nothing else, and I turned everything upside down the day I walked out of my study in a dress. (She asked to see me.) She simply never recovered from this. Still hasn't.
I truly think it can .Of course there may other issues but no marrige is perfect .Even after 6 years of being divorced my x (who i am now somewhat friendly with) says it was the crossdressing that ended it for her .Maybe im a rare case but it is what it is
Total of my changes prior to separation:Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
- I waxed off my body hair - this bothered her no end
- I painted my toenails (my socks and shoes hid them most of the time)
- I'd CD a fair amount - but not in front of her until she asked to see it
- I went to a support group meeting once a week.
This doesn't seem like a whole bunch of change.
My changes since separation:
- I started electrolysis
- I started HRT
- I have my own tiny breasts now. Yay.
- I go to a couple of different therapists, and a couple of different support groups
- I'm actively talking to doctors about FFS, and SRS. I want both in 2014.
- I live as a woman 24/7
- I'm interested in men now, mostly thanks to HRT.
This seems like a lot more changes to me - but you be the judge.
Paula, you are only looking at it from an absolute physical aspect. And even that, after two decades of no knowledge of the feminine side of you is drastic for her. It is however the emotional aspect and what lies behind why you made the changes you made when you were still with her that she was not able to comprehend or deal with.
Women, GG's... almost all are born with a sense of intuition that "us girls" are not born with. Even though we have aspects of us that are more feminine, and not just the physical desires to look like one, we do not have the extra intuition that they are born with. In you wife's case, she had the intuition that for you it was more than just cross dressing and an increased feminine presence within you. So, those changes that at the time you perceived as minor were major to her. Both physically and because of what they meant and where it would end up.
For a lot of us who are thinking, hey, I am only doing a little bit here and there, nothing drastic, nothing permanent, please be mindful of the emotional impact that comes with it.
Of course it can be THE reason for a breakup. I've had women who had trouble seeing much lesser of an issue cause a break up than CDing. It's a huge thing for a woman to discover her love is a CDer. It erodes her faith in you as an honest partner. However, if she really loves you, she would be willing to try and get an understanding of it, but I would understand if she just couldn't deal with it. It is a BIG thing. Don't underestimate it.
I really believe that not telling about the cding cannot be emphasized enough when it comes to the difficulty that many CDers have with their relationships after it is told or discovered. Cding itself is such a complex issue. It is so because of the fact that our wives and GF's, especially if they are 100% hetero (and most are) are going to have a hard time with it based on their own sexuality. At least for some of the time we are asking them to bend that hetero to some extent. Then of course there is the society aspect in that it is among the biggest of taboos. The biggest of all though is the trust that is broken because they were not told early on. There is so much going on here in terms of Cding. As much of a roller coaster as it is or has been for us, it is for them as well. Then add in the broken trust issue...
AllieSF. Thanks for taking the time to articulate your point. I agree 100% with what you wrote.
Lucy,
Maybe she started cheating on you in the beginning because she felt your occasional, but cloaked CDing was, in her mind, like you had an affair? If this is true, this points more to CDing as being the reason for the divorce. Al the other behavior on her side was some sort of coping mechanism that just further undermined your marriage. Sorry to hear that she used your dressing against you in a very mean way after the divorce. This is why we don't reveal our true selves to just anyone. We know that they could or might use it against us. I hope you are living a happy life now and find that special person to share all of you with.
Never say never.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenniferathome
Snoring too loud
One spouse insisting on a waterbed, the other refusing to sleep on one
Drinking too much
Forgetting every anniversary
... any of these things have been presented as "sole" causes for requesting divorce
and the relationship length did not seem to matter.
I'd say yes and no. Yes because women use the cross dressing as a weapon. It's always on the back of the minds and it leads to resentment. If she hates it and makes you feel bad for doing it then guilt and shame sets in. You become withdrawn from the relationship and she feels unwanted and undesirable. She then becomes snippy and cold and you become more distant and the marriage becomes hopeless. No, because what should the cross dressing have to do with wrecking a marriage. But it some how does. It all depends on the woman really and what kind of guy you are. I know of Neanderthal guys and their SO's think they're everything a man is supposed to be. I think its the hiding and lying they hate more than to fathom seeing their man in a dress. Who knows I haven't figured out my SO yet. One day she's cool and know it's disgusting. Some wives have accepted and some guys took a mile when only given an inch. If life evolves around CDing then like drugs or alcohol or gambling or whatever for sure being too obsessed with anything can destroy a marriage.
Good point Valerie about the gambling.... Is it the gambling itself or the money that was lost because of it? The money would not have been lost or wasted if it was not for the gambling. How many wives who are vehemently against gambling in any form are going to file for divorce because their husbands went out and bought a one dollar scratch off? They may really dislike that he even did that, but its impact is so minor that ending the relationship is extreme to the point where the guy never should have married someone like that in the 1st place....
But then.... what if, because of the woman's vehement stance on gambling, that the husband covers up the occasional one dollar scratch off purchase?? Now, what ends up as a train wreck is not the actual scratch off but the cover up because of it... The woman would have rather dealt with a minor gambling issue which has very little direct impact than lying about it. So long as.... the gambling didn't progress to becoming a full time poker player or spending every free minute he has at a casino....
So indirectly the Cding can lead to a break up. Its the lying about the Cding, or how it progressed into something more than occasional dress up and it then begins to directly effect the life of the wife, in ways she cannot handle, even though in every other aspect of the marriage the Cder does what any good spouse does.
YES,it CAN! If a gg has strong religious beliefs which do not tolerate, or accept men dressing in women's attire, and you don't repent, and totally stop cding, they will likely leave you. I have run into "brick walls" in trying to date some, and have been rejected because of it.
My first wife couldn't stand it at all.five year marriage down the drain.second marriage im still married 36 years still this wife cant stand it i cant bring it up or she will leave .so im alone with this all my life i found this site it helps me so much .the people here are so helpful if i didnt have this site i would have left this world along time ago.Its a tuff thing to deal with. im 56 and all i want is acceptance and love .
Alice, there are definitely many women who are attracted to the hyper masculine men. Some of it is merely preference. We should understand that this is going to happen frequently, and all the better reason why you are doing the right thing by letting them know up front about yourself. Better to find the right one than to go through a train wreck later on and have such heartbreak anger and sadness because of it.
Gendermutt, re your comment above about the hyper masculine men. Let's put this in perspective.
How many ultra macho guys were there in your high school or college? The jocks on sports teams maybe? This leaves the vast majority of guys who would have been just regular guys, not ultra macho: the nerds, the quiet guys, the guys who minded their own business, the guys who weren't popular. So now imagine that most of them have found partners and they are in relationships today. This means that the vast majority of women DO NOT go for the ultra macho guys.
Sorry for being picky, but I can't tell you how often I read here the idea that women prefer ultra macho guys. This just isn't true. Most of us go for the regular guys, since this is what most of them are! :)
But I think it's true that we tend to expect them to stick to the standard male practices and get annoyed when they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Long before I knew anything about CDing except what's in pop culture, I found one boyfriend's voice irritating because it was high pitched, and I found my husband's preference for sitting when urinating to be weird. Obviously I married him anyway, but I did think it was odd that he wouldn't stand up to pee "like men do."
My wife of 45 years does the purging for me! Alas on two occasions she has returned early from trips away and discovered 'femme' items not stashed away. There follows a 'stop this or I'll throw you out' lecture, so I have to be doubly careful and not at all forgetful when I choose to dress.
M.
Yes Cding (or transexualism), it can be a sole reason to end a marraige especially if the SO is devout religious. Some women just can not take it. Probably more common it most likely can be the straw that breaks the camels back... I am going through the first two reasons now...I know I am trans, not CD though...
I thought that too....In fact I forgave her and we tried to continue our marriage ( in which we did for another 7 years) but I think the damage was done already ,our marriage had a scar that never really healed ..Never any reason for cheating ,cding an issue ? Leave don't run around behind someones back ..Quote:
Originally Posted by laura.lapinski
Can you define what a "regular guy" is Reine? Without telling what he isn't? I'm not sure I can. I'm also not sure he exists. What's a regular woman?Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Also, in the description you did give, you mentioned "nerds, quiet guys, and unpopular guys." What about the funny guys? The outgoing guys? The thin guys? The fat guys? The loudmouth guys? The shy guys? The liberal guy? The conservative guy? The religious guy? The new age guy? The musician guy? The neatnik? The slob? The house proud home decorator? (Hey, don't laugh, I have a brother-in-law who is a "regular guy" who is like this.) Joe six-pack? The football fanatic? The sports nut? The wine-snob? The poet? The biker guy? The motor-cycle guy?
What about personality type? For example, you described Type-B personalities. Are Type-A guys just not "regular guys?" I mean, you can have a forceful personality and not be a jock, right?
BTW, when did nerds get to be "regular guys?"
Does "regular guy" describe anyone?
Oh, my interest isn't academic! I hope one day to date a "regular guy"! ;) (I also hope to own an unicorn ranch - we'll see if that happens either! :p)
I think your more spiritually advanced then you give yourself credit for. Would that you were My b#tch. Would take care of you. Straighten me out. Yep
I believe it could, although it depends a lot on the two people trying to deal with it. If one is terribly close minded and dead set against it (even if DADT) then, yes.
This is very true. Most of us, if we are hetero, do want our chosen male partners to be male. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by JessM.
But Gendermutt referred to an ultra masculine male. I imagined the stereotypical, insensitive and brutish sort of guy. Most of the guys that I know aren't like that. They actually change their kids diapers, help do the laundry, cook some meals, get mushy when they see some movies, hold their wife's purse when she needs them to, etc. :)
What about a cowboy of the sort John Wayne portrayed? Usually pretty intelligent, but extremely masculine? (I ask about this one because John Wayne is my wife's ideal of a masculine man.)Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Reine- I might be guilty of some generalization here...The wording might be a bit strong "hyper" and many was general, doesn't really even mean most. What I was implying was that Cders are not going to be a choice for a substantial amount of women. I am trying to think of wording that just means a good number, but not necessarily most.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
You, and the other GG's who are on this board and continue with your relationships with your CD S/O's are open minded women at the least. Having struggles with the CDing does not mean a woman is not open minded, but open minded enough that they are choosing to continue or start a relationship with a CDer. There are still a good portion of women who might not despise the CDers but for themselves will be of the mindset of thanks but no thanks. The gender crossing is just not for them, they prefer their men to be only on the male side of the gender fence. Masculinity both physical and emotional is what they prefer, although it doesn't necessarily need to be just the ultra or hyper masculinity.
Paul Teutal Sr. (Orange county choppers) comes to mind as a standard bearer of the hyper masculine type guy. Unless someone like him has a truly horrible personality, women would choose someone like him over a feminine guy who also had a good personality, likely a good majority of the time. It is just the nature of a majority of men and women. my post was merely to remind and give support to Alice that She is doing the right thing by putting herself out there for who she is and finding someone who will be open minded.
You're still thinking about this in a weird way. Women don't want Paul Teutal Sr. Women come in a range of types, and they like a range of types. It's true that most women want their men to follow mostly male cues in our society, but I think most of us violate the gender binary from time to time without causing a scene. A little looseness around gender roles is probably fine for most women; but at some point it goes over a line and makes the woman lose her attraction to the guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
In other words, it's fine for the guy to carry his wife's purse while they're shopping; but if he says he'd like one of his own, that's going to ruffle more feathers.
I'm with you, JessM, regarding Paul Sr, the OCC patriarch. If that's the standard bearer for hyper masculine guys, women (and men!) beware of the baggage that comes with it: he's always right, a control freak, short temper, full of himself...etc..etc. I guess some people like that, I hope just not very many.
And this, everyone, is it in a nutshell! Jess you couldn't have described it any better than this. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JessM.
So between ReineD & JessM (whom I both very strongly agree with on this matter, fwiw), we have concluded that too much gender variance can make a woman lose attraction to her spouse.Quote:
Originally Posted by JessM.
Do relationships NEVER end because one of the partners doesn't find the other attractive anymore, and that's the sole reason? Is that really then the assertion of this thread? In specific, I guess we're asserting that women wouldn't do this. I know for a solid verifiable fact that some men do this all the time - just ask any of the divorced women my age in Dallas who've been thrown over for a 20-30 year younger trophy wife! So it seems likely to me that the same could certainly end a marriage for a woman. Hey, attraction matters - and if that's gone, you've kicked a fundamental pillar out from under the marriage, right?
I think it would for me. I'm a CD, and that's enough. When I find out that a man CDs, even if it's just wearing women's underwear or something like that, I am completely turned off to him sexually after that. I like a masculine/feminine balance when in a relationship. I like to be the feminine part of the relationship and I like my man to be completely masculine (not wearing women's clothes at all).
I came out to a girlfriend once, that was enough pain and humiliation once she dumped me, and proceeded to tell everyone else around me.
After 24 years of marriage my SO does not know of my hidden kinks.
Even if I came out and was able to wear some of the " FUN " costumes she has in the bedroom, I would still not tell her about my past.
Thank you for the kind words!Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineD
Just want to underline that it often happens like that, but not always. For myself, I've found that I'm not attracted to my husband en femme, but once he's back in male mode, I'm attracted to him again. For some people, like FemmeElastique, just knowing that a guy wears panties is enough to end the attraction permanently, but for many of us, we can hold that knowledge in a separate part of our brain (like having an extra dessert stomach, lol), and still maintain the attraction when the women's clothes come off.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaQ
well, I am still going to stand by what I am not so successfully attempting to say... is that if the choice was hyper masculine or feminine, as in the only choice hypothetically, then a majority of women will choose a over b if both had decent personalities. It is for the many of us who have wives and gf's here our personalities that get us through and we continue on with our relationships. Granted, there are some women who do prefer effeminate men, but they are in the minority.
I would even say that there is a greater number of women who bounce around from one d bag masculine guy to another, getting cheated on and treated poorly but then immediately take a pass on a fem guy or one who dresses and acts so occasionally, regardless of his personality. There are more women like that then there are who will opt for a Cder who has a great personality.
My wife grew up in a good but very patriarchal setting. Very christian based. And her choice of men up to me has been predominantly the more masculine type. Burned pretty much every time by them. Even then, she still struggles with the fact I CD. Even though she does not see it, it really does not effect her to any extent, and what changes she has seen in me are not major, just being more free with the femininity I do have. I am still pretty much the same guy she married. It is still a major struggle for her at times. She has told me she is not certain she would have had a relationship with me if she knew beforehand. At the time she had almost no knowledge of what real CD's are or can be anyway. I am also fairly certain that if it wasn't for how good our relationship is in all other areas, the CDing would have likely ended the relationship. She thought seriously about leaving me after I told her. I didn't even have a secret life, wardrobe, was a member here or at any other CD sites. I only told her I always had the desire and felt it was time for me to explore those desires. Just a handful of times where I would briefly wear some of her clothes. My wife is among the more open minded women overall too. Especially seeing as how she grew up.
Just about any owner of a business will have a similar mindset, and I can more or less say for certain than any owner of a mechanical shop, especially performance based, they may not look like Paul Sr, but they will act quite a lot like that. At least when it comes to the business. Outside of that they may be totally different, as I would not be surprised if Paul Sr may not be quite what is portrayed on the show.Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleScott
I would have walked away if my husband in his twenties had been as much into crossdressing as he is now. It takes up quite a bit of our budget and our shared time, and I wouldn't have tolerated that back in our twenties. Why would I choose to have children with someone who would then spend so much of his time hiding himself from his children? Why would I choose to spend my life with someone whose favorite way to dress makes him unattractive to me?Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt
But I'm glad for the twenty years I got to spend with a great guy (while he kept his crossdressing so minimal that I didn't know about it). And I'm grateful for the time I still have with him-as-a-guy, even though it's less than I expected to have, because of the secret lifestyle. But I accept that people change over time and that the situation could be much worse.
I suspect you're right. The more reality shows that are thrown on the screen, the less real they seem to be. Those Housewives of [insert location here] that scratch each others' eyes out on TV are probably arm in arm while skipping to the bank.Quote:
Originally Posted by gendermutt