Telling the SO, Bad Reaction, Giving up CD'ing

Thanks for your candor, Michelle.

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Originally Posted by AKAMichelle

I made a mistake by not telling her before marriage but I didn't know the truth about cd'ing. I thought everyone like that transitioned. Plus it was sexual early in my life, so I had ever reason to believe that I could beat it. Since I had no desire at that time to transition. Being in my early 20's, high sex drive and a gorgeous GF was too much. When I married I had no desire at all to crossdress but that changed about one year later.

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I think that this happens to a lot of us.

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Originally Posted by AKAMichelle

What is she going to think when she finds your stash after you die? She is going to think that she never knew you at all destroying much of what you had together.

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Why would she think she never knew me? Is that all I am is a CD? No. She just didn't know THAT. Like she doesn't know that she farts in her sleep:o If you're worried about her jumping to conclusions then leave a written explanation with your stash.

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Originally Posted by AKAMichelle

Besides if you live a lie all of your life, what did you miss by not being truthful with her.

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Ask Giorgi about this one.

I'm not advocating lie, lie, lie, at all. Just that coming out to whoever is no guaranteed nirvana. It carries great risk that some might not be willing to take at that time.

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Originally Posted by Miss Misery

Why would she think she never knew me? Is that all I am is a CD? No. She just didn't know THAT. Like she doesn't know that she farts in her sleep:o If you're worried about her jumping to conclusions then leave a written explanation with your stash.

Ask Giorgi about this one.

I'm not advocating lie, lie, lie, at all. Just that coming out to whoever is no guaranteed nirvana. It carries great risk that some might not be willing to take at that time.

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People if they hide one thing they usually hide another. The more items which are found after the fact leaves people to draw their own conclusions. That is a problem for me since I don't want people drawing their own conclusions after I die. That's why I became an open book to my family. I quit hiding things from them. Even though I am going through a divorce, my wife is still my best friend. She has learned a lot about me in the last couple of years. Plus even with the divorce I am not hiding assets from her. She knows exactly where we stand and what she gets. I just can't live with her without fighting all of the time.

Telling a spouse usually has bad consequences for a long time at best. the longer you have waited the harder it is for them to accept us. Even though it would / could end my marriage, I would still tell. See I have done a lot of things which were wrong to my wife and she still loved me. She just couldn't accept this about me. My cd'ing just adds another level of fighting and I am so tired of fighting. I am at that age (50) where I want thing to settle down and get quieter now that my kids are leaving the nest. I have done my time raising my kids and I want to enjoy the rest of my life with someone special. Who loves completely and accepts everything about me. Someone that when I touch her hand it feels like magic. Somebody who compliments me (I don't need completing) and makes me want to be a better man / woman. :D

........but do not ever denie yourself...............

All the strength, good luck!

Hi Michelle,

I know you are speaking from experience but there are some assumptions here that just aren't right.

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Originally Posted by AKAMichelle

People if they hide one thing they usually hide another.

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Some people yes, other people no. That's just not fair to assume that if you hide being a CD then you're going to hide other stuff too.

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Originally Posted by AKAMichelle

I don't want people drawing their own conclusions after I die.

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You will never know so what's the difference. We're all taking the big dirt nap eventually. Do you care if they're drawing conclusions about you right now (behind your back)?

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Originally Posted by AKAMichelle

the longer you have waited the harder it is for them to accept us.

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I'd like to see that data. I doubt there's much of a relationship between the two.

You and I are the same age, Michelle, and I understand where your coming from with that part of your comment and wish you only the best in finding that someone special. My point is and has been that the whole CD/SO relationship, including tell/no tell and when/how, is so specific to each couple that it's nearly impossible to make one recommendation that will fit all situations. As someone trying to figure out how to make it work myself, I would love it if there was a secret recipe for success. It's just not so.

Reading your post, I really feel your anguish AND truly truly wish you the best!

just curious---you have been married 31 years and you are telling your wife now--you said it was because of some of the comments made by others in the forum (not me btw---although it is a good thing to let a potential SO know at the start of the relationship revealing it after 31 years might not be such a good idea---you really have to decide if you want to risk ending the marriage) You must have been quite good at hiding your xdressing if she had no idea after 3 decades that you like to cd---why did you initially decide to not to tell and why did you maintain the secret from her for all that time. Was it because you knew pretty much that she would have the reaction that she is having?

I know that in many marraiges of that long a duration, the couples stay togather not so much because they love the other person, but simply because they are afraid of change and don't want to have the upheaval of a divorce in thier life, so they put up with unhappiness of having to suppress who they are. When that kind of thing happens, it is natural for that partner to really start to resent the other. Do you think you can avoid that feeling if in fact you do stay in the marraige---it seems to me you are pretty entrenched in xdressing and it would be difficult, if not impossible to give it up, only now she is "onto you" and it will be harder to do it in secret--you should take some time, get your own counseling sessions, without your wife, and decide what you really want out of your life.

After 29 years I spoke up with my spouse. It was triggered by her finding charges on a credit card at a corset shop. ( I had become more open in my addition of clothes.) And it did spook her. Why now, versus just hiding it again or denying it? Well after being on this site for a several years and pushed the boundaries from a simple closet cd to something more, I felt it was time to review my own sense of self and declare what I was experiencing. Self honesty was a starting point.

Are things smooth now? Not entirely, but they are progressing, and it takes time. The 29 year relationship just got a bit more complicated. My SO did some research too and found that no she does not care to go too far with the dressing, but that many of the things she likes about me are related to my feminine side.

So it remains complicated, but workable.
And the dialogue continues.
Each of us has to find our own way and each of our spouses will require lots of care.

Thus we wish Georgi all the best in the next stage.

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Originally Posted by Miss Misery

People if they hide one thing they usually hide another.

Some people yes, other people no. That's just not fair to assume that if you hide being a CD then you're going to hide other stuff too.

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Notice that I said usually. Hiding and deceiving someone else becomes a habit. Especially when you do the hiding to prevent a fight. It is easy to justify that it is ok in this circumstance and the behavior becomes a habit.

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Originally Posted by Miss Misery

You will never know so what's the difference. We're all taking the big dirt nap eventually. Do you care if they're drawing conclusions about you right now (behind your back)?

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I personally care what legacy I leave for my kids and family. I want my loved ones to know me for who I really am.

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Originally Posted by Miss Misery

I'd like to see that data. I doubt there's much of a relationship between the two.

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What I am referring to here is that the longer you hide the more distrust and hurt there is to overcome when you finally do tell them. If you had been married for one year and then told your wife, it would be much different than if you told after 40 years of marriage. The longer that you are with a person the more connected you are and the harder to deal with something this big and difficult to understand.

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Originally Posted by Miss Misery

You and I are the same age, Michelle, and I understand where your coming from with that part of your comment and wish you only the best in finding that someone special. My point is and has been that the whole CD/SO relationship, including tell/no tell and when/how, is so specific to each couple that it's nearly impossible to make one recommendation that will fit all situations. As someone trying to figure out how to make it work myself, I would love it if there was a secret recipe for success. It's just not so.

Reading your post, I really feel your anguish AND truly truly wish you the best!

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There isn't a sure fire way to tell a SO. There are too many variables which can't be taken into account. Every couple is different. I think that is why Georgi failed so far. His wife was different from a lot of others and he did the best he could but it just wasn't enough.

I agree with Michelle on this. I don't remember a thread here that ever said "I have been married a long time yesterday I told her and she is accepting 100%". The long term this is you have "baggage" that accumulates over the years. You have a mortgage, then you have children and then the children have school and then you have to pay college. All this time things get "comfortable" and the spouse thinks you are what she sees when in fact you are growing more and more uncomfortable with this secret. And yes crossdressing isn't your only secret. You start sneaking out or you start drinking or whatever. IF crossdressing was the only "lie" you have, you are a doing well. But even if that is the case the spouse will wonder what else you are hiding and when you have that slight suspicion it becomes a BIG suspicion and even if you are perfect in every way she will think there is something else.

I am all for telling and the earlier the better because you and she have a life. The longer you hide this the more entwined that life becomes. And the messier it is. Unfortunately the majority of people on these boards are over 40. The 20 somethings out there are buried where most of us were 20 -30 years ago with the idea that it will go away of their spouse will be OK with it later after the house is paid and the kids are grown and we are retired. What I don't get is the shock people have when they are married 20+ years and they drop this bomb wih no pretext. I don't get the "she should have guessed" and the "she could not believe it". These are the same reactions we see when a spouse is caught in an affair, or whatever secret life they think they have.

Miss Misery (interesting name BTW...don't you think?), Michelle is telling her experience. I wish it was an uncommon thing but the longer you wait the worse it is. There are no studies. No more than there are studies about hos often other things ruin marriages. But I can tell you that if you tell before the burden becomes huge the aftermath is lot less messy.

This whole thread isn't about the fact that someone came out. It, at least to me, was a shocked reaction that the wife reacted incorrectly. 30 years is a long time. As I said before it amazes me when there was no communication between either party that would have given an indication of how this would go. Never a hint about how she felt about men is skirts. Never a hint about her feelings of how a :man: should be. Both parties were real good at not showing how they felt on this matter for 30 years. I sure would not want to play poker with them because they don't show any reads. I still think writing a letter or email or anything like that is extremely impersonal. It prevents two way communication in real time. That is what I believe was the fatal flaw here. Not in the telling but in the HOW it was told. The longer you play the bluff the higher the stakes and the bigger the risk of losing the pot. When you fold early you will be able to play longer and more hands. Just basic poker philosophy here.

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Originally Posted by Miss Misery

Don't start this stuff again. Isn't this whole thread about how this blew up in Giorgi's face? Others in the closet on here need to recognize that there is inherent risk in the "best policy".

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Thanks for quoting me out of context. I said that if Georgi's plans go awry and the urges to dress come back in full, then he should be honest with himself and not reject those urges. So in that case, I do hold that honesty is the best policy.

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Originally Posted by juno

With all of the violence and hate in the world, it is just sad that something as simple as a desire to dress a certain way can be taken so badly.
Juno

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Yes, when I was coming to grips in the 80's with being a crossdresser a friend expressed her confusion over why it was all such a big deal. As she said at the time, "It's just clothes!"

Kate

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Originally Posted by pj

But...I'm always surprised to read something like this:Surprised that anyone could consider a relationship wonderful or solid or perfect when one of the people in it is horrified, repulsed or otherwise turned off by who the other person really is.

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As was pointed out to me when coming to grips with the fact that I couldn't not be a CD, that I couldn't bury my girl half in the back of some closet without the thumping of her high heeled feet on the closet wall disturbing my mental state, I owed my wife the truth. I, too, thought I had a wonderful marriage, but one brutal friend pointed out that I had a wonderful lie. It would only be a wonderful marriage if I came out to my wife and we were still together after all the smoke of the burning lies cleared. Now, almost two dozen years later, I have to say that friend was correct. We're still together and it is a wonderful marriage.

Kate

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Originally Posted by SuzanneBender

Lessons learned from us Ghosts of Coming Out Past:

- Come out to the one you love before you get married.

- Coming out after marriage will have consequences sometimes significant.

- Once you come out the closet door the locks and there is no going back in.

- Teleprompters are not suitable for use during your coming out discussion with your spouse.

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Amen sistah! I wish I'd come out before my marriage, but then again, at that point in my life I hadn't truly come out to myself.

Kate

99% of women will never understand the cross dressing fetish, so the answer is simple - dont tell them or if you cant keep a secret from them - forget about cross dressing.

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Originally Posted by Rachelyorkcd

99% of women will never understand the cross dressing fetish, so the answer is simple - dont tell them or if you cant keep a secret from them - forget about cross dressing.

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87% of all statistics are made up on the spot. Wow and I thought I was harsh with Georgi. You just deflated everyone on these boards. Women may have preconceived or learned notions about us. Women are intelligent beings who have the ability to learn and reason. Women are not concrete. Women care. I won't buy 99% will never understand. I think 99% can understand if things are explained in a calm and logical manner. Free from all the learned and reinforced fallacies that society has planted in the minds of people. What is the first thought many women have when their husband comes out? He wants to be a woman. Smooth that over and then it is he is gay. Both of these stereotypes are learned from media and ethno/theocentric teachings. Both are not true. When we get past those, then women can see that we are not monsters or perverts. And ask the GG;'s here you will see that they really really like us (usually...mostly). But the key is calm communication. Not throw it in your face take it or leave it. There is compromise and sharing.


And let's drop this fetish stuff already. That is the reason I first posted here and hurt Georgi's feelings (sorry girl). It is NOT a fetish. It is not some sexual thing in most cases. It is a part of the people here. It is NOT a psychological problem or a disease. It is no different than a person who "has" to wear a suit to work or they are not really doing the job as they think it should be done. It is no different that having to be a farmer, or teacher or doctor because that is how you feel you are. A fetish is by definition, something that is required to function sexually (when used in a sexual context...it is really an object that one uses for spiritual purposes to gain powers...which in this case may be true in a few cases also).

We have had society change it's views of race, sex, religion, ethnicity and have shown that the stereotypes that were perpetuated by society and especially media were just that stereotypes. We need to now teach society that we are not creeps or weirdos and we need to start doing it by not calling what we do a "hobby" or "fetish" or sexual perversion.

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Originally Posted by Rachelyorkcd

99% of women will never understand the cross dressing fetish, so the answer is simple - dont tell them or if you cant keep a secret from them - forget about cross dressing.

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And pubic hair is Peter Rabbits cousin right ??

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Referring to Lorileah's entire post #112

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:yt: Very well said, Lorileah. :clap: :)

I have found that women can understand it but not all can accept. I think the key to acceptance is telling them early enough that they don't feel trapped in the marriage and giving them time to work through it. It is a little hard at first, but it can be done.

Plus cd'ing may be a fetish to some, but for many it is not. I started out thinking that cd'ing was more like a fetish only to find out at 50 that it is nowhere near the definition. Being TG is a moving target which defies labels. Every person is different and they are every changing. That is what makes acceptance so difficult without being 100% honest and lots and lots of talking.

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Originally Posted by AKAMichelle

I think the key to acceptance is telling them early enough that they don't feel trapped in the marriage and giving them time to work through it.

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Seems to me though, that if someone is going to become physically ill at the thought or idea of their husband in a frock, they are going to have that reaction whenever you tell them. "Tell early, tell often," is good advice, but the other person's preconceived notions are what they are.

And if they have preconceived notions that are that utterly negative, when all else is said and done (therapy, time, etc., etc) the odds that you are going to be left with a great relationship seem slim to me.

[SIZE="1"]Sorry, I just can't get over the puking thing. That takes this into a whole other realm beyond the typical negative reaction. Every time I see this subject I think, "Oh, there's the puking thread."[/SIZE]

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Originally Posted by ReineD

This is true for everyone. I can't imagine living a life, feeling I could not disclose who I am to the people I love.

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Well, how many people on here have told everyone they love at the same time? It appears to me, Georgi told her wife when she was comfortable. Maybe she didn't understand the complete picture for years. I know I thought for years (20) I was the only guy who got sexual pleasure from wearing women's clothes. How do you tell your spouse 30 years ago? Many of you are judging Georgi on TODAY'S morals. 30 years ago was different. No internet, back then.

People HAVE hidden many things from their spouses. Some because they loved them. When my wife asks my opinion of how she looks, I always say "Great." If you had a one noght stand on a business trip, would you absolutely tell your spouse even though you know it would ruin your marriage? Even though you knew it would NEVER happen again?

The people here on this forum have given largely good advice. It just seems so sanctimonious on this thread. Please give Georgi credit where credit is due. She told her spouse in hopes of a deeper relationship knowing the potential price. She could have continued as she had for the previous 30 years.

Live long and prosper Georgi.

Totally different thing telling your spouse she looks good (which honestly if she didn't you should probably tell her the problem before she goes out if the dress is too tight, short, ripped, wrong color whatever...anyway so she won't be looked at strange all night.) and having an affair and comparing that to keeping crossdressing a secret. I try very hard to not say things like that here because it puts dressing in the same category as cheating. It isn't the same. The thing here is that the majority of people who dress and keep it a secret "to protect their spouse (from????)" are really not doing anyone a favor by staying hidden. I keep talking investment because I think most people on here understand at least simple economics. You tend to build up a nest egg through life (hopefully) that your spouse and you worked for. She has half that. Now let's take that as emotional value. The longer you keep it a secret the more emotional equity your spouse has. Then after 20-30 years you say "Hey you know that account we have been adding to? Well I have not put as much into it as you have because I didn't think you should have my total emotional attention." How should she react? You can't really cash that in but she had ideas of how life would be. If you tell her early (if not before marriage at least before you get too deep in attachments) they can find someone who fills that need if she deems it necessary. Some will say "that's cool but we have to set limits" and some will say "So what? it isn't important". Some will say "I can't handle that". But they can go on and so can you.

It doesn't make it go away if you keep an affair hidden and even if you can get away with it, you are damaging that equity. we can argue "morals" all day. But this whole thing is not about affairs, stealing money, drinking too much, being a drug addict, or any illegal activity you want to compare to. It is about who you are, inside and although this is now taking this thread off track, it would behoove us to quit thinking we are a) criminals or b) some sort of psychological or theological misfit. As long as we have these feelings about ourselves how can we bemoan how things go when we come out? In the case of this thread it wasn't the telling so much as the not telling for so long. If Georgi had not had feelings that she was "wrong" to dress, she could have come out earlier. Too late for Georgi but not too late for the current generation. Let's decriminalize ourselves and maybe the rest of the world can see we are not bad people.

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Originally Posted by Shadeauxmarie

Well, how many people on here have told everyone they love at the same time? It appears to me, Georgi told her wife when she was comfortable. Maybe she didn't understand the complete picture for years. I know I thought for years (20) I was the only guy who got sexual pleasure from wearing women's clothes. How do you tell your spouse 30 years ago? Many of you are judging Georgi on TODAY'S morals. 30 years ago was different. No internet, back then.

People HAVE hidden many things from their spouses. Some because they loved them. When my wife asks my opinion of how she looks, I always say "Great." If you had a one noght stand on a business trip, would you absolutely tell your spouse even though you know it would ruin your marriage? Even though you knew it would NEVER happen again?

The people here on this forum have given largely good advice. It just seems so sanctimonious on this thread. Please give Georgi credit where credit is due. She told her spouse in hopes of a deeper relationship knowing the potential price. She could have continued as she had for the previous 30 years.

Live long and prosper Georgi.

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I think I have perspective on the subject that you are talking about. Nobody is judging Georgi for not telling 30 years ago. I didn't tell and I had the same information as Georgi. Next to nothing information wise. I made a mistake just like Georgi by not telling, but hindsight is always 20/20. Now the hard part when you didn't tell originally is when to tell now. That is a tough one. And even when you do tell, it isn't pretty. All of the stars don't align and heavens break out into song. In fact it is usually hell on earth for a while.

Now I am giving Georgi credit for trying and I hope everything works out for her. I told my wife for many of the same reasons as her. Tired of lying to my wife and wanting to get my marriage back on track and move it towards a deeper relationship. It didn't work for me and so far it hasn't for Georgi. Just because telling may result in a problems for awhile doesn't mean that you shouldn't tell your spouse. But that decision is up to each of us. No one can second guess the decision we make.

As for the one night stand, that too unfortunately I understand about. I made a lot of mistakes while married. Some 15 years ago now, I did have an affair which my wife never found out about. I didn't tell her because I didn't want to hurt her, but it did its damage to me. I guess that is fair since it was my fault. I am not advocating telling your wife everything especially if it won't affect her any further. but that just isn't the case with cd'ing. CD'ing is an ongoing thing. It is a deeper part of you than a one night stand would ever be. So in that case cd'ing must be told or you are cheating your marriage of the trust and honesty that it deserves.

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Originally Posted by Shadeauxmarie

Well, how many people on here have told everyone they love at the same time?

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You took my quote out of context. I was saying that I would not be able to hide who I am from my loved ones (in Georgi's specific case, it is her spouse) for so many years. I was saying that yes, there is some value in telling the truth for the spouse, but the benefit is mainly for the CD, so that she can be all that she is. I used "loved ones" as a general term. Of course you don't tell your entire family all at once, but it does begin with a spouse. And not after 30 years.

I also said that it is quite a different matter if it is not a gender ID issue, if it is a sexual thing such as it was in your case 30 years ago.

In Georgi's case it may not be just a fetish. My point was that she musn't blame the forum for advocating honesty. She would not have told her wife unless she felt the need to do so. We all know from reading threads here that things come to a head eventually, and CDs do tell because they feel they can no longer hide. And Georgi risks continuing to suffer even more if she tells her wife that the CDing is no longer a part of who she is. But, this is moot if for Georgi, it is indeed a sexual fetish and not a question of gender ID. Georgi hasn't clarified this for us yet, however.

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Originally Posted by Shadeauxmarie

If you had a one noght stand on a business trip, would you absolutely tell your spouse even though you know it would ruin your marriage?

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If my relationship had deteriorated to the point where I followed through with infidelity, then I would have to tell my spouse. This would be a huge red flag indicating that we had issues needing to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Shadeauxmarie

The people here on this forum have given largely good advice. It just seems so sanctimonious on this thread.

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Everyone is doing the best they can to help Georgi, according to their own experiences. Advice is not sanctimonious just because it disagrees with yours.

All I can say is that I am so sorry to hear what you are going through! My thoughts and my heart go out to you two, and I wish you all the best in getting through this!

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Originally Posted by Lorileah

This whole thread isn't about the fact that someone came out. It, at least to me, was a shocked reaction that the wife reacted incorrectly.

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I don't agree that is the issue. Shocked reactions are the norm and being physically ill is not that uncommon either.

Georgi posted his story as a warning. Georgi knew his wife, knew she would not accept his CDing and so he was adamant that he would never tell her. They have had a happy marriage for 31 years because of this arrangement.

Then he found this forum and entered into a pink fog. No doubt envious of others' open relationships and reacting to posts about honesty he put aside what he knew and dreamed of a different future. His wife's reaction has snapped him out of his pink fog. Now he is struggling to save his relationship and regretting he ever found this forum.

The point is that there are people in this world who value happiness and normalcy more than total honesty. There are GGs on this forum who have stated that they wished their SOs had never informed them about the CDing so that they could have continued living in blissful ignorance.

Life often sucks and people routinely have to make significant compromises and sacrifices chasing after happiness. Not telling about one's CDing, especially if it is primarily sexually orientated, is a sacrifice many are willing to make in exchange for a happy life.

We should not forget that total honesty is a idealistic notion. Most of us will chase after it regardless but for others hiding something from their SO is the best choice.

If there was a Matrix moment where people were asked to choose between the red or blue pill representing total honesty or blissful happiness, I think you would be surprised how many people would not hesitate to swallow the blissful happiness pill. The original Matrix movie was built around the very notion that people were more content being submerged in banal normalcy than facing the harshness of reality.

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Originally Posted by Satrana

I don't agree that is the issue. Shocked reactions are the norm and being physically ill is not that uncommon either.

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I meant to say that Georgi and some others here thought she cated incorrectlt. My bad. She reacted as she did because it was how she felt at the time.

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Georgi posted his story as a warning. Georgi knew his wife, knew she would not accept his CDing and so he was adamant that he would never tell her. They have had a happy marriage for 31 years because of this arrangement.[

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One could argue that point. If Georgi was happy then she would not have tried and change things. Let's just say they had a comfortable marriage.

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The point is that there are people in this world who value happiness and normalcy more than total honesty.

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Arrrgggghh!!!! two words there that really don't work well. "Normalcy" defines what? Average? What you are told you should be? The middle of the bell curve? and "total" honesty as an antithesis. No one is totally honest. It is choosing what to say and when to say it

In that manner I agree that people will choose ignorance and the illusion of happiness if given a choice. But now Georgi has chosen to think that they can go back to ignorance and find happiness. Is it better to fore go your own happiness for another? Philosphical question in deed. Is making others happy better than making yourself happy? And if you are unhappy doesn't that transmit to others around you and make them less happy? And in the end, do you get points for making more people happy and allowing yourself to be miserable. There are no correct answers here. But I know men who worked their whole lives to make their spouse and children happy and died sour grumpy young men. Would they have been the same if they had pursued more happiness for them? And when they die or leave the family when they are in their 40's or 50's are the ones left behind happy? Whole can of worms isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Satrana

l. The original Matrix movie was built around the very notion that people were more content being submerged in banal normalcy than facing the harshness of reality.

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and millions and millions of people cheered on the the HERO of the story as he stood to fight for honesty...jeez....

I just want to put in my two cents in for the wife. For good or for bad, she is entitled to her reaction...it was an instantaneous response to something that just sent her world off kilter.

We all know there is a lot of closed minded folk out there, and hopefully it will be less so in future for all sorts of folk.

However, she has spent 30 years thinking of her spouse a certain way and holding a certain view of the rest of the world. All of a sudden nothing is as it seems...one of those disorientating times.

All we know about her is that she is quite conservative in her thinking and she pukes when receiving shocking news...We can speculate what it means and maybe we might be right but at this point it is story we tell ourselves. The point is she may be a lovely women who loves her family tries to be a decent human being. Enough so that Georgi has been reasonably happy to be in a relationship with her.

It is a difficult situation for all the parties involved...From what Georgi has said here he sounds like a decent person and I do hope him and his wife are able to work through this....I wish them both my best!

Good grief. This is like kicking a dead horse. I think Georgi is long gone my friends.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

Something we are all missing here.

To the OP.

STOP TREATING IT LIKE SOME G.D. DISEASE!!!

Stop acting like what you are doing is wrong. Hiding it as long as you did was very wrong, but there is nothing to be done about that.

But, and I mean this, don't go to counseling to reinforce quitting.

YOU ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG.

As far as your wife is concerned, you acting like what you are doing is wrong just reinforces HER not liking it. It justifies an irrational reaction (and wanting to cut off your marriage just because of this is highly irrational.)

You have dumped a tremendous load onto her and it is going to take a long time for her to come to grips, if she can.

Now, and I may take some flack for this, but this is how I see this, especially in this day and age.

If she is unable to come to grips with what you do, then it is no longer YOUR FAULT, it is a short coming of her own.

How strong was your relationship before you did this, were there any other issues that were between you two?

But for the love of Pete stop behaving like what you are doing is something that must be corrected, that only weakens and already weak position.

BOTH OF YOU get to counseling, with someone that has dealt with this situation before. Don't go to any faith based stuff either, unless they are a more modern place that acknowledges people were created in many moulds.

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Ditto to that! I can see why she might need to think about some things...but, really?? Throwing up? Not letting you touch her? Seriously? I understand she might be thinking, "What else is he hiding? Why is this happening? Is it something I did?" But, really... Throwing up? I just can't get past that.

Another thing...everyone is knocking the letter. I am not a big "feelings" person. It is my absolute NIGHTMARE to sit down and talk about how I am feeling. I'm just never good at saying what I mean. I am much better at writing it. I know my SO works about the same. This doesn't mean that we don't talk things out, but if you are having trouble saying things that need to be said, writing is a perfectly appropriate option.

I really do wish you all of the best in the world. I hope that she gives this serious thought before ruining the marriage. If I were you, I would stress the fact that I had Always been a crossdresser, but I couldn't come to terms with it. That I was still the man that she married and that I still loved her very, very much. But, that I had to be honest with her and honest with myself. Stress the fact that you are the same person that you have always been.

Secondly, you both need to go to a counselor. Not for the purpose of you quitting, but for the purpose that it is just f*cking stupid to let this come between your marriage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Denise Rhodes

I think Georgi is long gone my friends.

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Figuratively or literally?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paisley GG

.... she has spent 30 years thinking of her spouse a certain way and holding a certain view of the rest of the world. All of a sudden nothing is as it seems...one of those disorientating times.

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I'm sorry Paisley but this "world shattering" stuff is too much drama as far as I'm concerned. When you're married for 20 - 30 yrs, you grow with each other (or are headed for divorce by now) to accept and deal with those aspects of your partners personality that you conflict with. The idea that a single aspect, like Cding could derail everything your marriage was built on shows that it was never on stable ground to begin with. To steal from Lorileah's comment comparing a long marriage to equity built up - the value of that equity IS the ability to accept and understand your partner's shortcomings and continue to love him/her ..... If you can't do that, then you never had any equity built up in the first place.

Denise,

As far as kicking a dead horse goes, this discussion has evolved into something bigger than Giorgi's particular situation and now is more about the SO/CD realtionship/why some accept and others do not/deceit .... Something that many looking tothis site want to read and or discuss. If it's kicking a dead horse then you can stop kicking anytime you want.

I would agree that it is too much drama...I know that I would not react that way myself...but as I suggested we really do not know anything about Georgi's wife except for those couple things....based on that info, I did make an assumption that this is pretty dramatic stuff for her.

I think it is oversimplifying by referring to cd'ing as being a single aspect. It seems to mean more than one thing to most of you who are cd'ers from what I have read and it also seems to impact more than one aspect of your lives from what I also read...so is it unfair not to allow the same for the partner?

I am sure that Georgi and wife have had all sorts of issues serious and toothpaste to work through during the course of their marriage. Time will tell if they have built enough tools, skills and love to survive and even thrive through this difficult period for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miss Misery

Figuratively or literally?
I'm sorry Paisley but this "world shattering" stuff is too much drama as far as I'm concerned. When you're married for 20 - 30 yrs, you grow with each other (or are headed for divorce by now) to accept and deal with those aspects of your partners personality that you conflict with. The idea that a single aspect, like Cding could derail everything your marriage was built on shows that it was never on stable ground to begin with. To steal from Lorileah's comment comparing a long marriage to equity built up - the value of that equity IS the ability to accept and understand your partner's shortcomings and continue to love him/her ..... If you can't do that, then you never had any equity built up in the first place.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Denise Rhodes

Good grief. This is like kicking a dead horse. I think Georgi is long gone my friends.

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True, but this thread is also a discussion about the merits of telling vs. not, which is a concern for many members here.

It's a good and necessary discussion, IMO. :)

Perhaps it was the straw that broke the camels back ? Maybe the people concerned share an unstable history .
We all react so differently in times of stress and emotional shock . One things clear tho - in times of such unsettled moments , I think it's a mans duty to care for his wife ... in every way possible including bare faced honesty .....
Because in the end ..... thats all we have left .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Georgi

I thought I'd share this with those who were considering telling their SOs because one of the major reasons I finally caved in and told her was the constant counseling of the 'tell her, tell her' crowd on this forum. I thought it appropriate to hear an opposing viewpoint.

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I don't see it as an opposite viewpoint at all.

In the best of worlds, a crossdresser would have told a prospective wife before getting engaged. Next best is after being engaged. Then it's a big fall down to telling after being married. Then even bigger fall down after having kids. About the worst case scenario is telling when you're married with young children at home. These are all different phases to reveal your true self to your spouse.

Not telling is another way to reveal to your spouse. CDers can choose to do this. In so doing, they risk discovery by accident such as being walked in upon, discovery of femme clothes stash, discovery of pictures on the computer, posts to this forum in the browser cache, accidents in not fully removing makeup, etc. Over decades of marriage, there's a very high chance of wives finding out in these ways. There's also discovery after you're dead. On average, women live longer than men. On average, men marry women younger than themselves. Do the math; on average, most wives outlive their husbands. Eventually, your stash would be found by her and she'd be left with zillions of questions that could never be answered after you're dead.

So, while telling your wife has had severely negative outcomes, imagine what NOT telling her would have wrought. You might have been able to keep the secret until you died, but then she would probably find out anyway...and not be able to get answers. Cruel, in the least.

There's no good answers, except telling your girlfriend before you ask her to marry you. But, the vast, vast majority of CDers lack the self acceptance at younger ages to be able to tell anyone, much less a potential future wife.

The choice you made isn't an opposite viewpoint. The situation you're in now finds you wishing you hadn't told her. But, there's seriously negative outcomes to not telling her as well. Ultimately, it could have been one of the most selfish acts you could have committed, and made her a victim in the process.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Georgi

Many closeted cd'ers were berated, I believe unfairly, for not telling their SOs and were pushed into believing that the only road to happiness was to free the inner woman and tell the truth.

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Telling your spouse isn't a path to happiness. Nobody can tell you what the best thing to do is. But, I will gladly say that I'm one who strongly believes in telling. That's strongly based on personal experience with several people, and from years of experience watching posters on this forum, negative results included. That said, I'd never advise anyone on any action in this regard if they're married with young kids at home.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Georgi

Joint counseling is indeed my goal. I've promised to see a counselor to help me maintain my giving up of cd'ing. My hope is that I can convince my wife that she can benefit from going to see the counselor with me.

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It's not uncommon to see wives in this situation thinking the problem isn't theirs, it's their weird husbands who want to dress up in women's clothes. This of course is the wrong approach. When you marry someone, your spouse may have a particular issue, problem, what have you. That becomes you problem by definition. If the two of you can't work towards resolution of whatever problem, there will continue to be a problem. One of you 'fixing' it alone will not fix it.

Not that CDing can be fixed...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Georgi

I've chosen to give myself a male identity on this forum to help guide myself in trying to stick to my plan of submerging the crossdressing.

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I hope for your sake that it works. Others have told you it won't work, and I agree. But, I say that in the hopes that you continue to understand you're up against severe odds. You're going to have to muster every bit of yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Georgi

Folks, I'm already in a place where I'm going to be unhappy about something. Losing my wife of 31 years will kill me. I've sat in the dark just trying to imagine living the rest of my life (I'm only 57) without her and THAT is what depresses the hell out of me.

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None of us are in your shoes. None of us can tell you what the right answer is. That must come from you. All we can convey to you is advice based on our experiences. I doubt anybody here wants to tear you down.

You're in an incredibly bad situation. Getting professional help is a must in my opinion. I wish your wife would get onboard with that, but it's not going to happen. Even so, the professional counseling will help you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Georgi

A point I will make again to several who have said 'let her go'. ... If we split up it's going to be because she puls herself out of my grasp.

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If you lose her, you can choose to live on. I know you can not imagine life without her. Nobody can help you see a new day past this, if she decides to leave you. You have to see it yourself. I will say it's there though. If this comes to pass, a professional counselor can help you along that path.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Georgi

Maybe later the philosophical discussion of tell/don't tell can proceed. I'm sure it's too early in my story to even know the full story as mine has a long ways to go to finish playing out.

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None of our stories are ended until our own lives are ended. Even for those of us who have lost our wives to death. I have an accepting wife, but my story continues on. I don't know what tomorrow holds. I don't know what ten years from now holds. Will she suddenly invert (she did once, a long time ago)? Will she grow tired of having a 'husband' that isn't 100% male, and suddenly get an urge for a 'real' man in her life? I don't know. Nobody knows those answers. Nobody knows your answers.

All we can do is go with the best information we have available to us at the time we make decisions. There isn't any 'fixing' that, and there isn't any 'wrong' in making the best decision we can with the best information we have available. That is what you did, and there was nothing 'wrong' with that, or anything that needs to be 'fixed'.

Personally, in as much as I know your situation, I think you made a fantastic decision. There's massive negative consequences to it. I do not dispute that in any respect. But, given her reaction to you telling her, if she'd found out via other means the reaction she would have had would have been several times, if not an order of magnitude, worse. The chances that you could maintain the secrecy forever were slim, at best. All it takes is one screw up. You're human.

I took one hell of a lot of courage to tell her. Now it is going to take one hell of a lot of courage to continue walking the path you're on.

Julie - I take my hat off to you .
Spot on , in every sense . :hugs:

From the viewpoint of someone on the other side- my husband told me after 25 years of marriage-a month is NOT enough time to expect her to be accepting of the situation. It's a slow process for most of us- I'm still not completely comfortable after almost a year. You will need to be patient if you want things to work out. Good Luck

To tell or not to tell – that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And, by opposing, end them.

Bardon me.

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Originally Posted by Denise Rhodes

Good grief. This is like kicking a dead horse. I think Georgi is long gone my friends.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

True, but this thread is also a discussion about the merits of telling vs. not, which is a concern for many members here.

It's a good and necessary discussion, IMO. :)

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Totally agree ... and I bet you a dollar to a cent that Georgi is still reading :2c:

Georgi, after over 3500 hits(views) and 134 replies( to date) I cannot remember such a thread provoking such an immediate and varied response from your sisters here. I am taking the role of observer and neutral in this but I gotta tell you , this thread is creating alot of buzz, mainly out of empathy for you that so many of us feel bad for you to be in your situation, Last Saturday 2 other girls from this forum met for the first time at a social gathering with other t-girls at a friendly bar in our city and part of the water cooler girl talk that night was discussing your thread among our crowd, including some very supporting wives who were with us that night.
I hope if anything that this shows you Georgi that love and concern , empathy,caring and even yes some body shaking to listen, will show how much people here care about you and your situation. Some of these posts are extremely long with well meaning advice, take it or leave it, but I do hope that this thread continues with more concern and compassion that it shows as of now. I wish you well in this situation and
God Bless you and your Wife.... things WILL be alright.:)

Megan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miss Misery

the ability to accept and understand your partner's shortcomings and continue to love him/her ..... If you can't do that, then you never had any equity built up in the first place.

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It is a good observation and is probably shares top billing with how open or closed minded your partner is.

I think we all know that some long term relationships are no longer based on romantic love but on a comfortable friendship and shared history where both partners are too scared to consider whether it is in their best interests to stay together. A shock like this would be a wake-up call to the wife who would now seriously consider the value of the relationship to her.

Close minded people usually remain so irregardless of the arguments and any CD married to one is basically screwed. But some closed minded partners have opened their eyes and learned to be accepting and I would guess that is because there was equity left in the relationship. The wife could see the value to her remaining and so had the motivation to educate herself and change her values.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beachmama

a month is NOT enough time to expect her to be accepting of the situation.

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Definitely not accepting of the situation in such a short time but a month is more than long enough to have gotten over the shock and begun to ask questions, read information and have conversations with her husband. The journey to acceptance can take a long time, the question is whether the wife wants to begin that journey.

Sorry to hear that..since I am a noob, I really don't know what to say.
I guess the kind of clothes you were CDing on were the kind you like to see your wife wearing right? Wait until everything cool down a bit, and find a chance to tell her that.
I used to date a girl when i was living in the States, I walked into Ann Taylor a few times and bought some clothes for her (the sales girls thought I was into CDing at that time given me dirty look somehow, but thanksful for the greens I paid).
The clothes were not her style, so I don't know she gave them away or gabbage them. We all men do have fantasy about how the women dress, but don't forget to ask yourself; do you dress lousy infront of her?
Good luck!!

I see many posts on here berating the wife for "irrational" puking, so I just thought I'd share my experience. I was married for six years after dating my wife for four years (ten total) when my wife found my stash of clothes. Since then, she has come to almost 100% acceptance, she actually seems to like the crossdressing more and more. My wife is a lovely, modern, rational, open-minded woman - but she puked too. She's on forums like this as well, and when you read about initial GG reactions, they are usually in shock and don't have a lot of control over their first responses. The reality of the situation usually hits them a bit later.

According to my wife, she puked because she simply did not know how to process the information. The man she thought she knew better than herself turned out to be a fantastic liar, and I wasn't just a CDer lying to his wife, it was me, lying to her. Her life took a surreal and highly unexpected turn, she has a sensitive stomach, so her reaction was to vomit.

I can only imagine what goes through the mind of a more traditional woman who has been lied to for over 31 years. Granted, after reading these posts, it is clear that she has big problems with CDing and probably a lot of ignorance about it. But I cannot imagine judging the response of any spouse who has been lied to for 31 years.

+1
I agree! in this modern time it takes no lies about CDing or cosplay.
I told some of my young coworkers when I was buying makeups from them about my purposes, they all knew i am not gay & just try to have fun.
The minority or numbers of CDers make all of us group togather in a little circle (Sisters from the 50s' & up todate).
Lucky to be still young in these days.will see more revolution.
Elderly sisters will have a better time in this time also.

This thread seems to have really touched a nerve with many members based on the number and quality of the responses. I think that this is a subject/experience that so many of us can relate to. Some of us got through it with relationships that are better, some got through it with relationships that died, some got through it somewhere in the middle, some won't even try and go through it and would rather continue to hide it and some tried to hide it and were caught, some tired to hide it and found that they could no longer do so and felt the cost of hiding it had become far too high.

We all have unique journey's, choices, outcomes. For me I know that the dialog, both privately and in these types of forums did one important thing, they helped me think through who I was, who I am and who I wanted to be. These discussions helped me see things that I either could not or did not want to see, things that kept me in a state of complete unhappiness and through those insights I was able to synthesize my own path. So while we may agree or disagree with specific things said here I think that we can all agree that the saying of any and all of these things helps us gain insights and grow and hoepfully move forward in our lives to a happier and more fulfilling place - I know that that has been my experience.

Melissa

Wow, thanks to all for the support and kind words and suggestions. That's one of the things I really like about this forum - acceptance and positive thinking.

Georgi - it's pronounced gay-or-ghee, as in the Russian form of the male name for George. Therefore when you refer to me in the third person, it's 'he' not 'she'. Not upset with anyone, just pointing out that my personae on this board is male, help me by reinforcing that. That's part of my commitment to my wife, and a subject that's already been discussed a hundred different ways.

I did have an appointment for the wife with a counselor I was seeing, but the darn counselor had to go have a root canal and had to cancel. Then trying to get the wife to reschedule has been a real uphill battle. She continues to think it's my problem and she shouldn't be required to have to do anything. Yesterday I said, "Fine, when you can take you clothes off in front of me and let me run my hands over every square inch of your body in broad daylight, then I'll agree there is no problem." She said nothing but I later found out she did call and make an appointment, albeit three weeks in the future. Hey, it's progress.

I've told her now that I'm tired of pushing and that I'm sorry I've pushed so hard, and the next move is up to her. So I'm backing down the dialogue and the pressure with her even more than what I thought was fairly gentle recently, and the ball is in her court.

As everyone has said multiple times and I fully understand and agree, this is going to take time. We go about our daily business and talk about everything but the elephant in the room and all is good, so maybe I'll survive until something can move forward here.

Thanks to all,
Georgi

Giorgi,

I am so glad to hear that you feel things are getting better -even just a little better.

It seems to be a fine line when "working through" the coming out process between talking/discussing the CD issue and being perceived as "obsessing" about it. So, I think you might be taking the right approach (although you're the only one who can decide that for sure) in presenting your case with some valid options and then backing off, continuing a sense of normalcy in day to day life, and giving your wife some "room" to think about the options. As you said, the ball is in her court.

Out of curiosity, does the counselor have any experience with CD/TS issues in a marriage? It might be good to make sure that whoever you use has at least some familiarity with crossdressing behavior.

Best of luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miss Misery

Out of curiosity, does the counselor have any experience with CD/TS issues in a marriage? It might be good to make sure that whoever you use has at least some familiarity with crossdressing behavior.

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In my post I said "I was seeing", I've seen this counsellor once, so however the verb should be expressed, so be it. I'm waiting to see her again until after my wife sees her at least once to avoid the perception that I am 'poisoning the well' and turning the counsellor any more toward me and against my wife than my wife might already perceived to be the case. If my wife meets with her, and if she agrees this counsellor is acceptable for counselling on both CD issues for her and joint marital issues for us, then I'll resume sessions with her. Or if she says no, we'll find another counsellor, then I'm also free to resume with this one.

In either case, I selected this counsellor because she listed 'Gender Identity' as one of her specialties on her web page. When I met with her in our initial session she was not at all unfriendly to the crossdressing discussion. How she'll work out as a counsellor trying to put a marriage back together rent asunder by crossdressing I guess time will tell.

Thx,
Georgi

Hi Georgi,

I am glad you are taking baby steps in the right direction. My wife has been reading these posts with great interest and she wanted me to tell you to be as patient and contrite as possible.

Her advice (She'll take it from here): Whether or not your wife ever accepts you, or whether or not you are able to stop CDing, you really hurt her with your revelation. Treat her extra nice (flowers and jewelry never hurt) to remind her why she really married you in the first place. Show her by your actions and your words that you are ultimately the same guy she was in love with before this revelation, and reassure her her happiness is your very first priority. You wife feels lied to and betrayed, and ultimately disrepected. She may even now see you as "the pervert guy." Even if she forgives you, trust and anger issues are bound to take their course. Always be very honest and patient.

You need to repair your image and you can actually take this opportunity to strengthen your marriage. Yes, you lied to her for a very long time, but also, you've now trusted her with your deepest, most personal secret. (This will be an even stronger point if you've never told anyone else). You can remind her why you told her (not just out of guilt) because she is your very best friend. Every single day until you see the therapist, give her a new, deeply personal compliment to remind her why she's the greatest woman you've ever met, and how fortunate you are to be married to her. Tell her how sexy and feminine she is. Try acting the way you did when you first met her and really wanted that first date. I don't care what the circumstances are, women love to be wooed. Women just want to be loved. So thank her for taking these steps with you and being willing to work this out. Extra love and care may encourage your wife to work through this situation with you. Remind her every day of the love that is in your heart, and respect all of the feelings she expresses.

:love:

(Me again) - GOOD LUCK!!!!

Georgi,

Please tell me what the devil "her stripping and allowing you to paw her all over" end quote has to do with the elephant in the room?

That struck me as a very suspect statement. Is this to show you she's just A-OK or are you playing "man" for us ?

Until this you had my support , now I'm not so sure.

It's been a MONTH after 35 years of your hideing ,But boy SHE'S really unreasonable...:brolleyes:

Nope, I can't give you my approval, so far you've come off as the most self centered in the land.

MY OPINION,
Presh GG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Presh GG

Please tell me what the devil "her stripping and allowing you to paw her all over" end quote has to do with the elephant in the room?

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I apologize if that came off as sexist or self-centered. You would have to know that prior to my revelation, we had a wonderfully open and playful sex life, with candlelit rooms or playing around on the rug in front of the fireplace (seriously). And the original comment was not about 'stripping and pawing', but was intended to be interpreted as 'mutual undressing and caressing' even though I did not use those words.

Now she won't be seen naked in front of me , and plainly says she feels uncomfortable just being naked in front of me, let alone letting me touch her naked. It's only been in the last week that I've gotten to hold her in a fully-clothed hug in daylight, and even then I can't squeeze too tightly before she starts pulling back. Her comment is that she wonders what's going on inside my head when I see her naked body, am I imagining myself as a woman?

So, my original comment to her about stripping in front of me was more about our being able to return to our original state of openness than it was about any absolute state of sexist behaviour.

Thx,
Georgi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Georgi

Her comment is that she wonders what's going on inside my head when I see her naked body, am I imagining myself as a woman?

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I understand that comment all too well. When I told my wife about cd'ing the comment above had to do with imagining myself as the woman during sex. Needless to say my marriage didn't survive. The cause of death wasn't cd'ing. Cd'ing was only a contributing factor to a marriage which was suffereing big time.

I hope your marriage is able to survive. I think the secret to telling a spouse is whether or not you have built an adequate foundation to deal with the tough times. My marriage had a lot of cracks and it couldn't hold up with the weight of one more thing.

I have a similar kind of post going myself but my wife in my case has suspected for a Looooonnnnggg time! and only caught me partially dressed recently, she has gone through similar rejection of me and we currently have a semi-peace where we live parallel lives in truth not much different to the time before the incident and actually much easier on me as now she knows and knows exactly what I will do when she is at work. Do NOT mistake that with acceptance she does in NO WAY approve and would give anything for it to have been a bad dream but it isn't.

I cannot stop this compulsion need addiction call it what it seems to you as I truly do not know what to class my crossdressing as, and that is the complete truth!

I have no idea what I am going to do but after some good advice from here I think my next phase is to try and see if I can set some ground rules or this might be a step too far as well I just don't know, but time will tell.

I must jump to you defence however, there is a stroing undercurrent of owning up type threads and tell her type comments and this was almost a course of action I took and that would have placed me in the position of writing this post not you!!

I fell for you 100% and wish you every success in getting through it in time, my only piece of advice is that time is a great healer, I hope it pan's out in my case too though:)