Men being men part 2 .... the dark side (& comment on androgyny in the mainstream)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

For example, I have 3 boys. I was determined to raise nurturing, feeling human beings. They did not go to public school, but to a Montessori school where everything is gender neutral, from the age of 18 months....

Well, guess what? They would go outside and make their own guns out of sticks.

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Not to say that it disproves your point, but may I point out that they were not isolated from the wider society. If they had been all that effectively isolated, then they wouldn't have known about guns in the first place.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Also, if gender were a social construct that CDs and TSs don't "fall for" then how come there are not more CDs and TSs?

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To say something is a social construct is not to say that it isn't real, or that we could get along without social constructs. The English language is clearly a social construct, and is clearly very real. It's also clear that if the USA had instead somehow ended up speaking, say, Swahili, we would have probably gotten along more or less as well as we are with English. But I seriously doubt we could have gotten along with no language at all.

I wouldn't say that CDs and TSs "don't 'fall for'" this social construct. I would say that the gender construct in its current form in Western (or USA?) society is something that most people can wear in greater or lesser comfort, but just doesn't fit some people at all. It's like "one size fits most" tights. Some people (like me) can't get them up past their knees.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I know the idea that sometime in the future men will universally want to break out of the restrictive masculine chains that have been "forced" on them and will therefore embrace and accept a more feminine style of presentation may be appealing to CDers who have felt society's bias all their lives, but I honestly do not believe this is a realistic outlook of things to come.

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I agree with you.

Most adults have pretty much gotten used to their "chains" and figured out how to get around while wearing them. If they aren't too heavy or ill-fitting, why would they want to exchange them for a different set of chains that may be just as bad and require another few decades to get used to?

Out of all my early friends....it was a girl that made a rubber band gun utilizing a piece of wood, a clothespin, and a rubber band. Her dad showed her how.

Why does it have to be about chains???

What's wrong with a gender binary, whether it's rooted in nature or a product of society and/or upbringing?

The problem with a gender binary is that it gives only two options. Gender A, or Gender B, opposed to what we know to be true and that is there is in fact Gender A and Gender Z, with all the other Genders in between.

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Originally Posted by Asche

I wouldn't say that CDs and TSs "don't 'fall for'" this social construct. I would say that the gender construct in its current form in Western (or USA?) society is something that most people can wear in greater or lesser comfort, but just doesn't fit some people at all. It's like "one size fits most" tights. Some people (like me) can't get them up past their knees.

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I agree that trans individuals feel at odds with stereotypical gender expectations. But I do believe that because the gender gap has and continues to narrow in terms of the workforce and home life responsibilities, the gender stereotypes are losing their strengths, even though I suppose we'll always have them to a degree in some socio-economic contexts.

This, together with the internet's ubiquity, does make it easier for people who don't feel at ease within the gender binary to branch out. But, I disagree that gender dysphorics are being prevented from exploring and then determining who they are. This may have been true a generation or more ago, but I don't think it is the case any more since the stereotypes in terms of what men and women can do at work and at home have all but disappeared. The gender dysphorics certainly don't feel completely free to express themselves in the mainstream (although even this is improving), since it doesn't look as if the narrowing gender gap will affect how people wish to present (in other words, men who are single dads will not want to start wearing dresses), but hopefully CDs are not forcing themselves into denial to the same degree they did 40 or 50 years ago.

I'm not dismissing the trauma that CDs and pre-stealth TSs experience in their life choices. I'm just saying that I doubt there are scores of gender dysphorics waiting in the wings for the opportunities to explore who they are and that sometime in the future we will discover that say half or even one tenth of the men in our society will wish to present as women.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

The problem with a gender binary is that it gives only two options. Gender A, or Gender B, opposed to what we know to be true and that is there is in fact Gender A and Gender Z, with all the other Genders in between.

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Not necessarily. This is only the case if everything in the world was black and white. We all know there is a lot of grey out there and this is one of them. The concept of a binary simply gives us a starting point.

And just because society is built upon such a binary does not mean automatic rejection of variances. It's just that "acceptance" becomes more of a challenge the further away from the norm you go.

Maybe the idea should be to view it less like a spectrum vs. binary idea, and view it more like a venn diagram:

http://www.louisianavoices.org/image...gram_blank.gif

There's a "male" side and a "female" side, but there's also plenty of space for personal expression where the two circles overlap.

I quit doing green light burn-outs when I had to start buying my own tires and gas. It was financial, but I'll take credit for maturing. haha

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Originally Posted by JiveTurkeyOnRye

Maybe the idea should be to view it less like a spectrum vs. binary idea, and view it more like a venn diagram:

http://www.louisianavoices.org/image...gram_blank.gif

There's a "male" side and a "female" side, but there's also plenty of space for personal expression where the two circles overlap.

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That is a great point Ryan, especially when it comes to discussion of labels with people who reject such notions. You can easily put the binaries on the diagram along with pretty much every mode of TG expression.

That said, I don't think it changes anything in the original premise, that most men simply don't have it in them to migrate to another point in the diagram, whether towards androgyny or otherwise.

This makes me think of something I thought of the other night. I had flipped on the TV coverage of the NHL Draft's first round. Up on stage were the Tampa Bay Lightning's staff. Men, several of them, along with their draft pick. And again it struck me, these guys are MEN. They give no thought to their gender, they just do it. And a couple of them do it very well from a style standpoint. Think about it, what's not to like about a man who looks good in a smart suit? Steve Yzerman and Guy Boucher in particular looked incredible. They're both decent looking to begin with but still, could you imagine either of them up there in a dress??? I think not. Nor would they be prattling as they were getting ready about the perceived lack of fashion choices for men as they were getting ready.

So once again it's three cheers for men being men, and women being women...and of course acceptance of variations without expectation that such variations will somehow take over. I just don't see it happening.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

That said, I don't think it changes anything in the original premise, that most men simply don't have it in them to migrate to another point in the diagram, whether towards androgyny or otherwise.

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Well, I cited a few different examples in my first response to you in this thread of cases where they have. Male cosmetics, earrings, skinny jeans, or, if you take it out of personal appearance, all the things Reine listed of ways that the gender gap is closing as to what people are allowed to do or not. I don't think they're migrating towards androgyny, I think it's more that society has gradually allotted for those things to be acceptable for "men."

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This makes me think of something I thought of the other night. I had flipped on the TV coverage of the NHL Draft's first round. Up on stage were the Tampa Bay Lightning's staff. Men, several of them, along with their draft pick. And again it struck me, these guys are MEN. They give no thought to their gender, they just do it.

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You're right. This is true of just about anything though. Most people don't give much thought to changing the status quo. But it also doesn't mean that if things slowly start to change they won't eventually change with it. I contend that they are, snail's pace, yes, but they are. You could basically negate the cultural impact of any social change that's ever occurred by saying "well there were a lot of people who never thought about it."

Here's a lowkey example: Lightbulbs. Have you gone to a home depot lately and looked at the lightbulb aisle? If you do, tell me the percentage now of CFL bulbs and the newer, even-more efficient LED bulbs, vs standard Incandescent bulbs. The old school bulbs are still there, but they're losing real estate. Yet I remember when CFL bulbs first came out, people dismissed them as a novelty. Now, I've even seen examples in pop culture, like on Yahoo!, where the image of a lightbulb to represent an idea is a CFL bulb. But, most people never thought about the environmental impact of lightbulbs. Even now most people who buy CFLs just do it because they're there, or because it seems like the thing to do. I really doubt the majority of lightbulb shoppers are driving to the store going "Here I go to lessen my environmental impact and cut my energy bills!" Instead they probably just have a shopping list that says "lightbulbs."

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And a couple of them do it very well from a style standpoint. Think about it, what's not to like about a man who looks good in a smart suit? Steve Yzerman and Guy Boucher in particular looked incredible. They're both decent looking to begin with but still, could you imagine either of them up there in a dress??? I think not.

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No, currently I couldn't. Trust me Sara, I am fully aware of how unusual I am when I go out dressed as a guy in a dress. But, consider this. The suits they're wearing are a thoroughly modern garment. The actual "suit" didn't come into fashion till the seventeenth century, and even then looked totally different from the suit trends of today. So whether the men are actively aware of it or not, they *are* changing their styles and following different fashion trends. Does it mean they're going to jump into dresses tomorrow? No, of course not, but it does mean that the cultural image of what makes a "man" changes.

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So once again it's three cheers for men being men, and women being women...and of course acceptance of variations without expectation that such variations will somehow take over. I just don't see it happening.

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I don't think the variances will ever take over, does anyone truly advocate that, or don't most people just want there to be mainstream acceptance for us to be ourselves?

Would love to have your opinion on this.

I do not believe in a Gender Binary, no one is completely feminine or masculine, I don’t care if your talking about Marilyn Monroe or John Wayne.

I will admit, some are more near one end of the Gender Continuum than others, unlike me, who is darn near middle of the road.

I agree. I'd even go so far as to propose: there is a third gender, a "supergender" if you will, that encompasses both.

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Originally Posted by Intertwined

Would love to have your opinion on this.

I do not believe in a Gender Binary, no one is completely feminine or masculine, I don’t care if your talking about Marilyn Monroe or John Wayne.

I will admit, some are more near one end of the Gender Continuum than others, unlike me, who is darn near middle of the road.

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John Wayne's real name was Marion which can be both a male and female name...

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I'm just saying that I doubt there are scores of gender dysphorics waiting in the wings for the opportunities to explore who they are...

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I would say that it depends upon exactly what you mean by "gender dysphoria."

If you mean males who are dissatisfied with their lives due to the restrictions of their gender's role, whether they are aware that the dissatisfaction comes from their gender role or not, I suspect there are lots of them.

If you mean males who are aware of and object to some of the restrictions of their gender's role, I suspect there are still quite a few. A lot fewer than there are girls and women who object to the restrictions imposed on them because they are female, but still quite a few.

If you mean males who feel that they would like to switch to living as if they had in fact been born female (even if only part-time), then I agree that the number is probably fairly small.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

... and [I doubt] that sometime in the future we will discover that say half or even one tenth of the men in our society will wish to present as women.

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Agreed.

If anything, I would expect that if the bounds of behavior, etc., that is accepted for males are broadened, we might see fewer men wishing to present as women.

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Originally Posted by Pythos

The problem with a gender binary is that it gives only two options. Gender A, or Gender B, opposed to what we know to be true and that is there is in fact Gender A and Gender Z, with all the other Genders in between.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

Not necessarily. This is only the case if everything in the world was black and white. We all know there is a lot of grey out there and this is one of them. The concept of a binary simply gives us a starting point.

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(As I put back on my Energizer Bunny costume with the "Gender is a construct" drum...)

I think this is still too limited. What we are used to calling "gender" is more like a multidimensional space, each of whose axes corresponds to some characteristic that we call "masculine" or "feminine" (can you tell I'm a mathematician?)

And when you come down to it, the only reason these axes (other than "anatomical gender") are considered part of "gender" is because we are used to calling them "masculine" or "feminine."]

One of the more annoying follies that our species is prone to is the habit of conflating things that aren't really related. We like to think that if we know (or think) someone is "A Democrat", we already know all about what he/she believes in, is for/against, etc., so we don't have to bother to learn anything about them as individuals. Any time someone says "the Muslims" believe this, or "the French" are doing that, they are reducing a very varied group to one characteristic.

And that's what we do with gender.

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Originally Posted by JiveTurkeyOnRye

Well, I cited a few different examples in my first response to you in this thread of cases where they have. Male cosmetics, earrings, skinny jeans, or, if you take it out of personal appearance, all the things Reine listed of ways that the gender gap is closing as to what people are allowed to do or not. I don't think they're migrating towards androgyny, I think it's more that society has gradually allotted for those things to be acceptable for "men."

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You make a good point: it is true that cosmetics, jewelry, skin care, some items of clothing, etc that have traditionally been only available to women are now widely available to men. But, I don't see any of these trends as an indication that men are migrating to femininity. It just means that men want to look younger, want to hide the gray in their hair, want to be stylish for a number of reasons, some of which are to present a more vibrant or youthful appearance for the job market or the dating scene.

Styles and fads continually change, and what might have once been considered strictly appropriate for one gender (such as pants for men or skin care for women), is no longer. But, this does not mean that the women who now wear pants or the men who now use exfoliators or cover their gray feel any less feminine or masculine respectively.

Maybe we're saying the same thing. :p

Asche, you've mentioned several times now that you feel there are many men who feel uneasy being men or they feel certain restrictions about being male, even if it hasn't occurred to them they might be trans in some form or another. At least, this is what I think you are saying. :p Can you give me an example of a guy who doesn't feel right in his own skin but doesn't know why? Or (other than a CDer who wants to wear what is currently considered feminine wear), a guy who feels there are restrictions placed on him that he doesn't enjoy? :)

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Originally Posted by ReineD

You make a good point: it is true that cosmetics, jewelry, skin care, some items of clothing, etc that have traditionally been only available to women are now widely available to men. But, I don't see any of these trends as an indication that men are migrating to femininity. It just means that men want to look younger, want to hide the gray in their hair, want to be stylish for a number of reasons, some of which are to present a more vibrant or youthful appearance for the job market or the dating scene.

Styles and fads continually change, and what might have once been considered strictly appropriate for one gender (such as pants for men or skin care for women), is no longer. But, this does not mean that the women who now wear pants or the men who now use exfoliators or cover their gray feel any less feminine or masculine respectively.

Maybe we're saying the same thing. :p

Asche, you've mentioned several times now that you feel there are many men who feel uneasy being men or they feel certain restrictions about being male, even if it hasn't occurred to them they might be trans in some form or another. At least, this is what I think you are saying. :p Can you give me an example of a guy who doesn't feel right in his own skin but doesn't know why? Or (other than a CDer who wants to wear what is currently considered feminine wear), a guy who feels there are restrictions placed on him that he doesn't enjoy? :)

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It is interesting to note how beauty items and beauty treatments are marketed to men. At one salon at a casino, a pedicure is marketed to men as a "Sports Foot Scrub" - LOL. Hair color is marketed to men using sports as a backdrop for a TV for 'Just for Men" hair color. The tagline for the ad is "keep your edge". Nothing is marketed to a man as a beautification product. There are several companies that are selling men's nail polish and they are using masculine color names like "Pirate and Coal Miner (me thinks this one was especially made for Karen so that Karen could wear it to work or while playing Ice Hockey!".

The cosmetics market is attempting to take cosmetic items and beauty services that were always considered feminine and marketing them using advertising and product names that make them appear to be "masculine". As I stated in another post, we don't need male nail polish because OPI, Essie, and all other brands of nail polish have a lot of great colors for everyone. The male nail polish companies will use employ a masculine marketing campaign and sell a bottle of nail polish for two or three times the price of the equivalent OPI nail polish, and guys that want to wear nail polish will pay the price because they believe that the product is masculine. t is a really brilliant strategy. Most women that I know will purchase a product regardless of whether it is marketed to men or women. Women do not have the hang-ups that men have regarding masculinity and femininity.

I agree that we are not moving to an androgenyous world; we are simply moving to a world where more liberties are available for men as long as those items such as beauty treatments and products are marketed to men. It will still be a severe foul for a normal masculine man to use feminine products like OPI nail polish or Clairol hair color, or if a man uses Clairol hair color, you can be certain that he will never publicly review that fact for fear of being ridiculed and ostracized from the male pack animal/herd mentality.

In addition to my previous post, it is important to understand that there is nothing more fragile than masculinity. Most men have been fed a line of crap since they were several years old that their masculinity is being tested everyday and that they must rise to the challenge. The average male fears having his masculinity questioned/challenged more than running into an inferno to rescue people inside or going to war. It is all social conditioning. Women are not conditioned in this manner and have a wider range of behavior patterns that are considered to be acceptable. For example, several months ago, the president of J. Crew (Jenna Lyons) featured a national ad in which she was enjoying a loving bonding moment with her young son and had painted his toenail hot pink because it is his favorite color. This ad caused outrage among the Right-Wing-Nuts, however it was interesting to read the response on the blogs of the LA Times, NY Times, and other websites. It was mentioned many times that if the ad had been reversed - in other words, if the ad showed a little girl wearing a football uniform and throwing a football to her Dad, there wouldn't have been any discussion, in fact most folks would think it is really cute. The ad really highlighted the double-standard of honoring and encouraging masculinity, while devaluing femininity and feminine traits. Kudos to Jenna Lyons and J. Crew for this ad. The only way to make progress is to get out there and be who you really are, not the "one-size-fits-all" image that society has created for your along with the small bot that defines acceptable expression. Unlike many other countries, we live in America and have freedom of speech and expression.

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Maybe we're saying the same thing. :p

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We are but sort of disagreeing about what it says. You're right, men don't tend to use cosmetics in the mainstream to "feel feminine," just as women don't wear pants to "feel masculine."

But these are both things that were once considered feminine and masculine that are not any more because the social culture has shifted to allow them to be viewed differently. So in other words, while they didn't choose to do these things that they're not doing specifically to feel feminine, enough men wanted to something that was considered feminine that society had to eventually accept that these were acceptable behaviors for men.

So, really you have sort of answered your own question towards Asche. All the examples you named earlier in this thread, like about the way the gender gap has narrowed to allow men to fill more nuturing rolls in society. Here were examples of ways that the social paradigm shifted because enough people felt repressed by them, or at the very least saw a need to move the barriers, even if it was a subconscious element of what they were doing. The status quo has changed, and it doesn't do that when people are fine with how things are.

Having said that, I also agree with you that no man is going to start wearing dresses for the reason of being a stay at home dad and thus feeling the need to be more feminine. The only way skirted garments will return to the realm of men's fashion is if, like those skin care products, they become accepted as male garments. This is why I cited Utilikilts. Most people who know what they are accept them as male garments, so some of the aggressive, tough guys that Sara spoke of in the first post actually do consider them an option of clothes to wear.

Furthermore, the truth is that MtF Crossdressers, if anything, actually uphold the social norms that insist the different sexes behave in specific ways, because when passing as a woman a (Non-TS) crossdreser is essentially saying "I am doing this feminine thing, so I have to present as female."

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

The ad really highlighted the double-standard of honoring and encouraging masculinity, while devaluing femininity and feminine traits. Kudos to Jenna Lyons and J. Crew for this ad.

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Good example Jamie! I actually emailed Jenna Lyons to compliment her on the ad and to show her support during the media blitz and she wrote me back to thank me. She laughed about the media storm, and was like "We were just having fun!" (in reference to her painting her sons toenails, as in, the kid otherwise behaves entirely cisgendered and was just enjoying time in an innocent activity with his mom. )

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Originally Posted by JiveTurkeyOnRye

Here were examples of ways that the social paradigm shifted because enough people felt repressed by them, or at the very least saw a need to move the barriers, even if it was a subconscious element of what they were doing. The status quo has changed, and it doesn't do that when people are fine with how things are.

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I agree with the shifting of the social paradigm, but not because people felt repressed. I think it was due to economic necessity. During the 50s, only one salary was needed for a family to live. Now, it takes two if they have kids. Men had to take on more of the "traditional" female roles (helping out with household chores and kids) out of sheer necessity. The rising divorce rate with more dads getting full or shared custody also resulted in men having to become more domestic in addition to maintaining their careers. Women now tell their daughters they must obtain degrees and develop careers, no only for personal fulfillment but also because of economic need in addition to the fact that a woman can no longer rely on "being taken care of" by a man since marriage has become so volatile.

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Originally Posted by JiveTurkeyOnRye

Furthermore, the truth is that MtF Crossdressers, if anything, actually uphold the social norms that insist the different sexes behave in specific ways, because when passing as a woman a (Non-TS) crossdreser is essentially saying "I am doing this feminine thing, so I have to present as female."

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I couldn't agree more. :p Although, I suspect the CDers who are out in the mainstream do less of this than the closeted CDers.

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Originally Posted by Jamie001

The average male fears having his masculinity questioned/challenged more than running into an inferno to rescue people inside or going to war. It is all social conditioning.

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The ad really highlighted the double-standard of honoring and encouraging masculinity, while devaluing femininity and feminine traits.

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This is true as well, but I question whether non-TG men resent the double standard, even though I understand why CDers do. I rather think non-TGs are the ones who uphold the double standard, simply because they enjoy being men and THEY are the ones who do not wish to cross the gender lines. Women don't feel this way because they've had to cross into traditional male gender roles out of economic necessity, beginning during WWII. I think there was a lull though during the 50s, but the cultural revolution during the 60s changed all of this again. :)

It was literally lack of man-power. The post-war period, extending through the 50's was America attempting to stuff the genie back into the bottle ( "you women go back to your proper place" ). During the war, masses of women got to see that talk of "men's work" was BS, as well as getting a taste of the convenience of pants.


"I am doing this feminine thing, so I have to present as female."
Looking female gives me a kind of spiritual pleasure, it's not because "I am doing this feminine thing."

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Originally Posted by ReineD

... I question whether non-TG men resent the double standard, even though I understand why CDers do.

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"Non-TG men"* is a rather large group, and it's almost impossible to say anything about such a large group that doesn't have lots of exceptions. The topic of men wearing skirts, for instance, crops up all over the Web, and you'll always find a number of comments from men saying they'd love to try it if they weren't afraid of what would happen to them if they did. For that matter, quite a few men have told me that they would love to wear kilts, but are afraid to.

I'm not saying they're the majority of non-TG men, but it shows that there's a lot more variation than you seem to assume.

* - I'm assuming that you are not defining anyone who has any desire for any non-gender-conformant thing to be TG, the way some people here do. If you did define TG that way, then your statement would be a tautology.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

[non-TG men] enjoy being men and THEY are the ones who do not wish to cross the gender lines. Women don't feel this way because they've had to cross into traditional male gender roles out of economic necessity, beginning during WWII. I think there was a lull though during the 50s, but the cultural revolution during the 60s changed all of this again. :)

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As someone who lived through the 50's and 60's, I don't think women crossing into traditional male gender roles was simply "economic necessity." Economic necessity led to two-income households, but it wasn't responsible for women wearing pants nearly all the time, or for large numbers of women going into traditional male professions, or for girls demanding the right to play in Little League, or for women regularly protesting expressions of sexism.

If "economic necessity" drives anything, it is women doing work that makes a direct economic contribution to the family, and they've been having to do that for millenia. Even women working in factories is a lot older than any organized women's movement -- it was already widespread by the early 1800's.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

How would nature ensure the propagation of our species if it favored gender neutrality? These are deep questions and I suppose I could take a week (or a lifetime ) to conduct research, but I don't have the time nor the current resources to do it properly.

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Gender behavior has nothing to do with sexual activity. You could totally reverse gender roles and society would continue. You don't have to conduct research - just buy a book on the subject off Amazon. There is so much that people assume is natural behavior which scientific tests disprove.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Well, guess what? They would go outside and make their own guns out of sticks. They would play aggressive games with their friends. They would tie each other up to trees. Girls don't do this.

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Girls dont? Tomboy behavior is very common. Anyway trying to protect your kids from certain masculine traits at home is pointless when they will be taking their ques how boys behave from other boys around them ie the boys at school as well as observing boys behavior on tv, movies, books, internet etc. Children learn their behavior from each other not from their parents. Your methodology would only have worked if you kept them at home and ensured all other sources of information were blocked.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

Also, if gender were a social construct that CDs and TSs don't "fall for" then how come there are not more CDs and TSs?

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Not following your logic. The issue is gender conformity is overpowering so we would expect only a tiny minority to fall through the cracks and that is what we observe. Also most CDs do conform for many years until one day they discover the idea of crossdressing which at heart is an escape from your prescribed gender.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I know the idea that sometime in the future men will universally want to break out of the restrictive masculine chains that have been "forced" on them and will therefore embrace and accept a more feminine style of presentation may be appealing to CDers who have felt society's bias all their lives, but I honestly do not believe this is a realistic outlook of things to come.

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Yet the same was not true of women. If we were having this discussion at the beginning of the 20th century we would be saying women would have no interest from breaking free of their traditional role. Your point of view is centered on your observations of present day males who are locked into a rigid gender structure. There are no exclusive feelings to genders. If many women love the feeling of being pretty and feeling desirable then the same would be true of men devoid of the social constraints that manipulates them from even considering the idea.

Asche, the last time I used the term "cis-men" here, there were many who did not follow my meaning. I've been using the term, "non-TG men" since.

At any rate, I meant men who are not interested in crossing gender barriers in any significant way. For example, I know someone who enjoys wearing his lover's panties during sex and only during sex. He is not interested in any other feminine accoutrements at any other time nor does he identify in any way as being the least bit feminine. The panties help him to feel closer to his female lover during sex in ways that I won't get into here. I would also include this person in my broad definition of "non-TG men", or "cis-men" if you prefer. It was meant to be a broad statement, in the same way that we use the terms "men" and "women" here.

Economic necessity: I agree, such a broad statement can never be a single, simple explanation but I did use it as a support statement to the claim Jamie made that many women do not shy away from appearing masculine (although I disagree that a woman who works and wears pants is masculine) in the same way that men shy away from appearing feminine. This was not my main argument although it is a significant reality of our times. A proper discussion of all the other factors that caused women's changing roles in the last 50-70 years, why they started to wear pants and branched out into professions that were previously dominated by men, why some demanded the right to compete against boys in sports, and why most will protest sexism, in short, why women demand equal rights should be done separately, so as not to derail this thread too much. If you like, you could start a thread about this in the Lounge, since by itself it isn't a CDing topic, and invite others to share their opinions.

EDIT
Sue101, I've just read your post #98 and thank you for your response, but to simplify things, let's get back to the basic argument. I maintain that most boys want to be boys and they are not interested in adopting an internal feminine gender ID, no matter what are the social conventions. I gather you disagree with this and you maintain that if society said it was OK for all boys to be feminine, most would since they would like to feel pretty?

I will say this in response to your last argument (women breaking free of their traditional gender roles during the 20th century), this did not in any way cause them to feel any less feminine. They still know they are women and they do not want to change this.

Reine, I'm quite disappointed because yesterday I spent a long time writing you a post in response to points you and I raised, only to accidentally hit the "+ Reply to Thread" button at the bottom of the page instead of the "post quick reply" button under the actual text box, and lost the whole response. Rather than try to re-create it, I'm just going to move on to the most recent post of yours.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I would also include this person in my broad definition of "non-TG men", or "cis-men" if you prefer. It was meant to be a broad statement, in the same way that we use the terms "men" and "women" here.

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Just curious here Reine if you would consider me transgendered or cisgendered based on my personal preference to still appear as male despite the gender norms of the clothes I choose to wear? There's no right or wrong answer, just a side curiosity.

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I maintain that most boys want to be boys and they are not interested in adopting an internal feminine gender ID, no matter what are the social conventions.

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I agree with you on this point, in fact I maintain the belief that if there weren't such restrictions on what is and isn't considered acceptable behavior for men to be MEN, you'd see less boys/men adopting internal feminine gender IDs. Why? Because they'd be able to express those aspects of their personalities while still being boys. (A world where for example, a JCrew ad with a kid panting his toenails with mom wouldn't be scandalous)

Why do I feel this way? By looking at women. The cultural standards allow for "tomboy" type behavior amongst women. Thus, when you come on a site and look at the FtM section, you see very little, if any who identify as simply FtM Crossdressers or FtM Transvestites, but rather, almost exclusively you find true Transmen, Men who were born with women's bodies.

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I will say this in response to your last argument (women breaking free of their traditional gender roles during the 20th century), this did not in any way cause them to feel any less feminine. They still know they are women and they do not want to change this.

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But the two aren't the same thing. Being/feeling more or less feminine/masculine isn't the same as being/feeling more or less male/female. By virtue of working in a hardware store, especially the one I worked in back in Ohio, I certainly have met plenty of VERY masculine women, who were still quite comfortably women. I think all people have their own individual mix of traits that can be perceived as masculine and feminine.

I wear styles that are more outwardly feminine than most men do, for sure. And I think I look relatively good when I indulge in a little bit of feminine flair to my outfits, though I also think I look (and feel) good when I get totally dressed up in a smart suit and tie and embrace my masculine side. I also think I have made some great outfits by blending some masculine and some feminine elements together. I also don't ever doubt that I'm a man when I do this.

I personally do think more men would wear skirts/dresses and other "feminine" things if they weren't so concerned about the social stigma. I've been told as much to my face by guys who have become familiar with my own style and have told me about it when hanging around after comedy shows and stuff. Furthermore, I've even had another comic, named Jeff, who has always been really cool to me about my style, tell me once that he had a lot of admiration for me dressing how I do because he even has some men's shirts he owns that he won't wear because he's too worried about getting picked on by other guy friends of his for it being too "gay" or "girly." This is a men's shirt! He obviously liked it or he wouldn't have bought it, but he's afraid to wear it because of the reaction his peer group might have.... I do not think this is all that uncommon a concern amongst young men in today's culture.