Motel/hotel rooms and the shame of crossdressing...I feel a rant coming on!

[TGMarla]

Nice rant, Leslie. And I agree with everything you say in it (including the Clinton part).

However, others make some very good points on the subject as well. This very basically harmless activity becomes not quite so harmless and simple when scrutinized, analyzed, and publicized. Assuredly, we are hurting no one, but stand to get hurt very badly should the knowledge of our crossdressing become public knowledge.

Lorileah's rebuttal to your OP is spot on. The gay and lesbian contingent cannot shut it off and put it away like crossdressers do. That's a key point. But Lori.....the Canadian PM is one of the greatest people in world affairs? And JFK was rewarded for his martyrdom with a very good legacy that is not all that richly deserved. But I won't trample the dead.

[Matia]

Lorileah's rebuttal to your OP is spot on. The gay and lesbian contingent cannot shut it off and put it away like crossdressers do. That's a key point.

I wonder how you put it away ? I mean without negating yourself. I believe that if it was so simple, than all TG people would just push the button to shut it off and be "normal"
we didn't decide to be like that, we were also born this way, it's not something we learn, in this way it is the very same thing as it is in gay community, it is just harder to explain to
"normal" people. It is indeed very easy to show crossdressing in a negative and amoral light - but this is actually the case, how our society perceives sexuality and how our society
perceives things that are out of the box. In the name of "peace" and "uniformity" everyone is trading their individuality for the sake of society. In this way many people have strong issues
and are worried that they are not "normal" I think the main overall problem is that in trying to fit we have to sell part of ourselves, and you don't even need to be crossdresser for this. It
could be anything really. We like to think that we live in a free society but that is not correct, people still have to fight for certain freedoms - educate others, find their spot under the sun

[CONSUELO]

I have often wondered if there is a "victim mindset" that inspires nasty comments. if you are hiding things away you have already exposed your vulnerability and it is recognized and exploited by the nasty elements in society. In other words, your view of yourself will affect the way that others look at you. In all of these posts there are many examples of cd ers who just stand tall and get on with it. Tough to do but it pays off. I'm sure that many of you have watched "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert". In that film one of the TV characters is very tough and takes no nonsense from others and in return gets to be treated with some respect. I'm not advocating that we all get tough and go on the offensive, but I would be interested in others' opinions on this.

[Matia]

I have often wondered if there is a "victim mindset" that inspires nasty comments. if you are hiding things away you have already exposed your vulnerability and it is recognized and exploited by the nasty elements in society. In other words, your view of yourself will affect the way that others look at you. In all of these posts there are many examples of cd ers who just stand tall and get on with it. Tough to do but it pays off. I'm sure that many of you have watched "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert". In that film one of the TV characters is very tough and takes no nonsense from others and in return gets to be treated with some respect. I'm not advocating that we all get tough and go on the offensive, but I would be interested in others' opinions on this.

I often see this, when you stand up for yourself people respect it.

[Leslie Langford]

Another "I'm out, and I want you to be out, too, because it helps ME" thread.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not in making this statement, Nicole, but as for me, I'm doing my part.

I've been out and about en femme for over 5 years now, and in the process have gotten to know - and in some cases become friends with - a number of GG's.

It's not rocket science. I dress stylish and age-appropriately, and always act in a lady-like fashion. It is very evident to them that that I like women as individuals as opposed to objectifying them the way many of our male brethren do. They also see me trying to emulate them in respectful and "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" kind of way, and they have all responded very favorably to that. Same with SA's and other GG's that one might encounter in the course of being out in public in girl mode...act the part in a "pay it forward" kind of way, and they will invariably treat us kind, even if we are "read".

Most of the ladies whom I have interacted with had never met a crossdresser before, and in keeping with the old adage that one should always leave a place in better condition than one found it in, I think that I have never failed to make a good impression on them. In the process, I've also dispelled many of the myths people often harbor about us. This reflects positively on our community as a whole, and makes it much easier on both parties with the next crossdresser they might encounter.

This is the whole point of my thread. As Franklin D. Roosevelt famously said in his presidential Inaugural Address in 1933 as a prelude to galvanizing the American public to overcome the Great Depression: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself". Words for us crossdressers to live by as well...

[Lorileah]

But Lori.....the Canadian PM is one of the greatest people in world affairs?

Not world affairs...personal clandestine affairs

I wonder how you put it away ? I mean without negating yourself.

Ask the "I can quit anytime I just do it for fun and I don't need you to tell me how to live my life because I an NOT gay and I don't think "we" need to be accepted" crowd. Evidently shutting it out is easy for some. They just put the clothes on, do housework, pretend to be a girl for an hour then put it all away, unwilling to step forward and say "Hey I am a crossdresser, deal with it"

I believe that if it was so simple, than all TG people would just push the button to shut it off and be "normal"

No one said all, but I will say many. Many who still believe that what they are and what they do is "wrong"

we didn't decide to be like that, we were also born this way,

and thus you just supported Leslie's point. Why hide in a dark hotel room? Why not just own it then?

it is just harder to explain to
"normal" people.

And made harder when the people who participate sneak off to a hotel and hide from their spouse. How hard is it to explain? You just said all that needs to be said "We were BORN this way"

It is indeed very easy to show crossdressing in a negative and amoral light -

And 40 years ago it was easy to do the same to minorities, gays, and women...yet they fought to NOT be treated that way. They still are not treated "equally" but they didn't run off and hide either. Why? Because you can see what they are (OK many gays could blend as we call it and they did for years) whereas I will venture a low estimate that 50% of TG people don't feel the need to support rights because they can just "go away" and disappear into the woodwork. The exception are the TS's who have to live their lives. everyone else
can keep it hidden. Like sneaking away to a hotel to essentially cheat on their spouse by dressing and in some cases acting out certain things (but they are not gay they are straight women meeting men while they are dressed and then they are straight men going home afterward :P)

The thing is that we cannot dispel stereotypes if we ourselves believe them. If you believe you have to go to the next town and rent a room to dress and then stay in that room because "They" won't accept you, then you are part of the problem as they used to say. Just look at how many threads here are from proud posters who claim they "got away" with dressing. Boy, glad their SO didn't come home early. Glad the neighbor didn't knock on the door because this dirty little secret to them is not dissimilar to a myriad of real crimes. OH MY GAWD, can you imagine how the world would end tomorrow if you just accepted who you are?

[mikiSJ]

...those that dress in motel rooms may not be ashamed at all, but rather know what the consequences may be if they are caught dressing. ...judgment probably correctly overcomes pro-active action and potential unwanted and unneeded negative consequences of that action. ... In other words, dressing in a motel room or keeping the secret is our way of dealing with the obstacles associated with this different hobby/lifestyle of ours. We gain what we need and do not inconvenience others, nor take a potentially very risky and unnecessary path. ...

I cannot add anything to what Allie has said. My hotel/motel room is my bedroom when the adult children who live with me are at work. As you can see in my image, I found a blank wall to take my images, and not the cheap night stand and side lights, but it is still essentially the same as the motel room.

Miki

[Matia]

Not world affairs...personal clandestine affairs

Ask the "I can quit anytime I just do it for fun and I don't need you to tell me how to live my life because I an NOT gay and I don't think "we" need to be accepted" crowd. Evidently shutting it out is easy for some. They just put the clothes on, do housework, pretend to be a girl for an hour then put it all away, unwilling to step forward and say "Hey I am a crossdresser, deal with it" No one said all, but I will say many. Many who still believe that what they are and what they do is "wrong"
and thus you just supported Leslie's point. Why hide in a dark hotel room? Why not just own it then? And made harder when the people who participate sneak off to a hotel and hide from their spouse. How hard is it to explain? You just said all that needs to be said "We were BORN this way" And 40 years ago it was easy to do the same to minorities, gays, and women...yet they fought to NOT be treated that way. They still are not treated "equally" but they didn't run off and hide either. Why? Because you can see what they are (OK many gays could blend as we call it and they did for years) whereas I will venture a low estimate that 50% of TG people don't feel the need to support rights because they can just "go away" and disappear into the woodwork. The exception are the TS's who have to live their lives. everyone else
can keep it hidden. Like sneaking away to a hotel to essentially cheat on their spouse by dressing and in some cases acting out certain things (but they are not gay they are straight women meeting men while they are dressed and then they are straight men going home afterward :P)

The thing is that we cannot dispel stereotypes if we ourselves believe them. If you believe you have to go to the next town and rent a room to dress and then stay in that room because "They" won't accept you, then you are part of the problem as they used to say. Just look at how many threads here are from proud posters who claim they "got away" with dressing. Boy, glad their SO didn't come home early. Glad the neighbor didn't knock on the door because this dirty little secret to them is not dissimilar to a myriad of real crimes. OH MY GAWD, can you imagine how the world would end tomorrow if you just accepted who you are?

Lori I think you didn't get which side I am on with all the quotes you said what I was saying I do support Leslie's point

[suchacutie]

I feel that we are in a transistion period (no pun intended....well, maybe a little!). The only way that transgenderism can be accepted as a regular part of existence is through education, and that will only be completed after a couple of generations. It's pretty clear that this has started, but it will be quite a while before those who just cannot accept transgenderism have passed on. There are some folks who believe what they believe and are frightened to change.

Education will always win, albeit slowly.

[Foxglove]

Some random thoughts on what I consider a very good post:

I also get angry when I think about the things society will accept and the things they won't. There are, e.g., plenty of people who will get far more upset about TGism than they will about war. For that matter, there are people who don't get the least bit upset about war.

As for this argument that we need to come out "to help the cause", it's a bitter and useless one, I think. Those who have so great a need to come out that they think it outweighs the risks will do so. Others will say the risk far outweighs the need--or maybe they don't even feel the need. It's up to each person to decide for him/herself.

As for me, I'm coming out. My need has become so great that I've finally said, "Damn the consequences!"

One more point: I don't think it's ignorance that hurts us, but rather bad-minded people. Preparatory to getting out in public, I've outed myself to seven people in the last few days (with plans to come out to three more on Monday). These seven people were uniformly accepting and supportive--yet not a one of them knew a thing about TGism. A couple of them said, "Transgenderism--what is that exactly?" So I ended up having a pretty good chat with 3 or 4 of them. They were sympathetic to us and willing to learn.

My point is that decent people will be generous, even to those they don't understand in the least. Bad people will be nasty, even if, and maybe especially if, they have something of an understanding of others. There's no point in trying to educate the bad-minded. You have to decide whether you're willing to stand up to them.

Best wishes, Annabelle

[Lorileah]

There's no point in trying to educate the bad-minded.

Back where I come from we have a saying "You can tell a Texan...you can't tell 'em much but you can tell 'em" (with apologies to my Texan friends )

[Foxglove]

Back where I come from we have a saying "You can tell a Texan...you can't tell 'em much but you can tell 'em" (with apologies to my Texan friends )

Which would include most of my family. But no matter. I kind of agree with you.

Annabelle

[Mickitv]

Easier said than done. Life is always complicated and maybe the short time in the motel room is all we can get at this moment. I would take it in a minute and have several times.

[RitaJanelle1964]

The only reason I prefer taking photos of myself en femme in hotel rooms is because the decor in them is a MAJOR upgrade over my own home in its current state...

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I'm going to say this from the start...this is a dead horse thread....we've discussed this topic many many times. Not just here but other places as well. So, being one of those people that has seen this topic over and over....I am...annoyed.

<right now there are people saying "Uh oh">

That just underlines again how secretive most of us still are regarding our "strange" hobby.

Oh, it's a hobby is it now? I don't recall any other hobby being tied to one's identity like the transgender thing is. For starters, I think we need to avoid "hobby" terminology in it's entirety, as much as is possible.

Not just secretive, but downright ashamed, actually...

Well duh! I'd say at least half the CD's here are ashamed of themselves....why else do we so so much hiding, deception, lies and self deception?

The more I think about this, the more sad it makes me.

It's not just sad, it's depressing.

Yeah, yeah, we know all the reasons -

Yes, we do.

So why then do we allow this same society to do this to us and go into self-imposed exile just because we are different and don't conform to generally accepted norms?

Because deep down, many crossdressers have accepted the condemnation and internalized it and follow it to the letter. I bet the crossdressers are some of the strongest enforcers of the status quo. I bet we got crossdressers in this very thread that support churches that are anti GLBT with their dollars or vote for politicians that demonize GLBT people every chance they get...because deep down, they accept the condemnation and aren't willing to give it up.

I bet you some of the CD's in this very thread are opposed to GLBT rights legislation, I bet even more are against gay marriage. Every "why does society think we're gay" thread, exists because of the subtle homophobia of the person who posted it.

the homo- and transphobes,

There's probably people who've said homophobic statements to others or stayed silent when such was being said...in this very thread.

And yet, society often still dares to judge us transgendered folk far more harshly than these other "outliers", and often succeeds in brainwashing us into believing that we are some sort of lower form of life, and deserving of the scorn often heaped upon us.

I'm disappointed in that statement. It's 2012.... and 1950 wants it's rhetoric back. Really Leslie, things aren't THAT bad. Considering all the TS's here who are just "living their lives" that tell their stories of how "it's not as bad as they thought it would be". Or the young folks who talk about how accepting their friends are. or the fact that the frakking Vice President of the United States says transgender discrimination is "The Civil Rights Issue of Our Time" or the fact that President Obama was the first president to ever use the word "transgender" in a speech.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-...nder-pride-mon

That means something people...THE President says discriminating against trans people is wrong.... and you know what...in some places it's also illegal. It most certainly is here, sucks to be those "Tea Party Crossdresers" in places like Utah, Wyoming, Arizona and down in Dixie, don't it.

They want acceptance and not to be discriminated against, but deep down they hate the people fighting for their rights. Hypocrites...that's right, I said it, because that's what you are. You lend your support to groups opposed to GLBT people....you're a hypocrite. And if you say your transness/crossdressing isn't as important as your guns or wallet....you're been led into supporting your own oppression, so shut up about society hating us. If you're not willing to make even the "slightest" effort, not even an anonymous letter of support or donation.....to make things better, then shut the hell up...and get off these boards because I am tired of you people making it harder for the rest of us and then whining about how "society hates us and thinks were gay".

Far too often, we aid and abet this vicious circle

That's what I said.

So let's take a cue from our gay and lesbian fellow travellers on this sex/gender continuum, be "loud, proud, and out", come out of hiding and go forth confidently into the big bad world, see and be seen, and don't let anyone ever try to diminish us again because of who or what we are...

Problem is...some of our very members here don't like gay people....isn't it obvious?

[QUOTE=Leslie Langford;3007874]

Then again, we've already heard from Chaz Bono, who not only wrote a book about his life journey so far, but also gave an especially good account of himself on "Dancing With the Stars." A very positive role model, indeed.

There have been books written for decades... I bet you most of the CD's here couldn't even name one...because they're too scared to look for them at the library or buy one at the bookstore.

The trouble is, Leslie, that we all want the 'anchor' to be there, but none of us want to be him/her?

That's right They want their freedom now...but don't want to give up their perceived "straight normality privilege".

Being closeted isn't as bad as it sounds!

I think it's worse for one's emotional well being, more than anything else. I think even telling just "one" other person can help a great deal. For CD's I think immediate family one lives with need to know...but anyone else is optional...other than SA's, MA's, hairdressers, etc etc.

However, the gay/lesbian situation was not brought into the mainstream by the loud proud shouting expositons, IMHO.

Yes it was, Stonewall changed everything.

It was brought into mainstream reality by kind thoughtful caring gays and lesbians going about their daily life in the best exemplary manner, showing all that they really are good citizens, and great people in their own right.

And then the assimilationists/"straight acting gays" tried to sweep the street trannies and queens who initiated Stonewall under a rug.

The point is as log as the mice can hide and feel safe when the lights are turned on, they will continue to sneak out when the cat is busy elsewhere. Of course those are the same mice who scream about how their SO is SO unaccepting because they were sneaking behind the SO's back for 10-20-30- years. A lie is a lie, sneaking is sneaking, hiding is hiding.

Exactly.

Another "I'm out, and I want you to be out, too, because it helps ME" thread.

It helps everyone, including you, you just don't want to admit that.

The more folks that are out the more that we can help each other advance the cause like our gay brothers and sisters.

Nicole frequently makes snippy comments like that to the out crowd...because deep down..she knows that she's "not helping" the problem...and in fact...is most likely one of those making it worse. Hows the situation on GLBT rights there in Mississippi?

When your ready to tell you grandma, and mother and father, as well as your boss, then come give me a lecture,

Some of us have already done at least some of those things.

I stood up and shouted against segregation, and I stood and shouted against an evil war

Thank you!

and now I'm old and tired, if you don't mind I'll sit this one out.

We could use your support, wisdom and knowledge though...even you stay off the picket lines.

But my thought in reading your post was that those of us who feel ashamed, guilty or frightened of stepping,out of our closet or hotel room are to a degree accepting, aiding and abetting those in society (whatever that means) that would prefer we stay hidden.

Why yes, they are complicit in their own oppression.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not in making this statement, Nicole, but as for me, I'm doing my part.

Nicole don't like the out crowd very much... because of the very reasons mentioned in this thread.

This is the whole point of my thread. As Franklin D. Roosevelt famously said in his presidential Inaugural Address in 1933 as a prelude to galvanizing the American public to overcome the Great Depression: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself". Words for us crossdressers to live by as well...

I've said that myself.

No one said all, but I will say many. Many who still believe that what they are and what they do is "wrong"

Of course they do, we see it all the time.

whereas I will venture a low estimate that 50% of TG people don't feel the need to support rights because they can just "go away" and disappear into the woodwork.

yeah, they can hide. and then they do the: "I can hide and no one knows so I don't have to do anything or give up any priviledge...so when's my rights coming?"

Like sneaking away to a hotel to essentially cheat on their spouse by dressing and in some cases acting out certain things (but they are not gay they are straight women meeting men while they are dressed and then they are straight men going home afterward :P)

Yeah the the CD's who are part of the "bi when dressed" or "attracted-to-men while dressed" crowd, but are also part of the "when I'm not dressed I'm straight... no homo here."

The thing is that we cannot dispel stereotypes if we ourselves believe them.

Right.

If you believe you have to go to the next town and rent a room to dress and then stay in that room because "They" won't accept you, then you are part of the problem as they used to say. Just look at how many threads here are from proud posters who claim they "got away" with dressing. Boy, glad their SO didn't come home early. Glad the neighbor didn't knock on the door because this dirty little secret to them is not dissimilar to a myriad of real crimes. OH MY GAWD, can you imagine how the world would end tomorrow if you just accepted who you are?

That's so sad, it's funny.

Veronica

[dragdoll]

Well, that's a hard one to follow but I'll post about my one hotel experience and it was horrifying. In my early CDing-in-public days, I went to this dive motel and rented a room, for a weekly rate of $126. My second night I got dressed up and decided to venture out; while I was getting into my car I heard a voice from the distance yell out my name. I couldn't see who it was or what room it came from so I panicked and drove away quickly. I ended up staying the night at a friends house and went back the next day, snuck into my room and got my stuff and snuck away (I parked my car on the opposite side of the building) and got the hell out of there, no care at all about the money I wasted since I paid for a whole week. To this day I have no idea who that person was and I'm not even 100% sure if they said my name or it just sounded like it. It spooked me enough to stay away from that area for awhile.

[kellycan27]

The only reason I prefer taking photos of myself en femme in hotel rooms is because the decor in them is a MAJOR upgrade over my own home in its current state...

Stay off the bed spread.. I was watching a show and they were looking for DNA from a suspect and they found 35 different stains on the cover LMAO

[Jamie001]

I don't disagree that society has been less accepting of transgenderism than we wish. But my thought in reading your post was that those of us who feel ashamed, guilty or frightened of stepping,out of our closet or hotel room are to a degree accepting, aiding and abetting those in society (whatever that means) that would prefer we stay hidden.

This is very true. Thank you for pointing this out.

There is a lot of wisdom in Veronica's post about being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. Most crossdressers are part of the problem. I hope that all of the crossdressers on this forum will read it and take it to heart and understanding how they are BS'ing themselves by living in a fantasy world that only has reality in their own minds.

[NicoleScott]

Leslie, perhaps a little sarcastic, or snippy, but true. I've read many posts about a CDer coming out/going out with wonderful outcomes, and then make the leap that everybody should do the same, thinking everyone's outcome will be as good. We know that many coming out outcomes are disastrous. But those who encourage the coming out aren't there for the consequences.

So you see a photo of a CDer in a motel room and make the assumption that it's because of shame. I agree with Allie's response (post #2) to that.

Leslie, I think it's great that you have found acceptance, both internal and external, with your dressing and have found happiness in living your feminine identity outside a hotel room. I'm glad that you're doing your part, whatever it is that your choose it to be. But who said I have to have a part? I'm perfectly content to dress in private, sometimes in hotel rooms, and I have no need to further the cause of greater public acceptance of crossdressing. There really is nothing in it for me, so any steps I take to come out benefit CDers who want to be out. If I feel differently, I will reconsider what actions I might take.

But I'm a crossdresser This IS the MtFCD forum, isn't it? A TS most certainly has a different approach to coming out, or so I'm told over and over again by TS folk posing as CD experts on the MtFCD forum, most of whom admit to misidentifying themselves as CDers until the enlightening-bolt hit them, after which they claim to know everything about crossdressers and crossdressing. Posts taken with a grain of salt.

[Badtranny]

Being closeted isn't as bad as it sounds!

It doesn't sound bad at all really. If you CD for a sexual kick, then I think coming out is kinda inappropriate in most settings. It's a little different if you like to go all out and play in the world on occasion. In that case, being in the closet hurts your own spirit. If you're also closeted to the extent that you hate yourself, then that begins to hurt the rest of us because most people who hate themselves promote social policies to punish themselves.

A lie is a lie, sneaking is sneaking, hiding is hiding

...and this is at the root of the issue. People who actively CD but are deeply closeted become so adept at hiding that lying can become second nature to them. I was never a closeted CD but I was a closet queer for many years and it was honestly beginning to bend my character. When you hide or lie about something that is such a fundamental part of who you are, telling someone a lie to to get a better deal or taking advantage of someone is really not that difficult. If I could lie to my buddies about what I did over the weekend and totally deny the existence of somebody I just made love to, then I could pretty much lie about anything. People that are deeply closeted eventually become people that can't be trusted.

PS I love love love love you Lori!

When your ready to tell you grandma, and mother and father, as well as your boss, then come give me a lecture,

This isn't necessary and not helpful to characterize "coming out" in this way. A CD is not a TS and unless they are living full-time lives then coming out with a parade is hardly necessary. I think the larger point to this is coming out to yourself. I know that sounds like psychobabble but when you accept yourself you WANT to be with like minded people. You WANT to support people like you. You don't need to come out to your grandma, but certainly your wife,or even your best friend. It all depends on who YOU are. Telling your boss is not necessary unless you are just dieing to express yourself a bit at work. You don't even have to use words like transgender, just say, "I like to mix it up sometimes" with a smile. SO many CD's are so suffocated by self hate that their activity becomes dark, and sinister rather than fun and lighthearted. This is the problem with the closet, there's no light in there. It is damn near impossible to feel good about something that you are keeping so secret.

I wonder how you put it away ? I mean without negating yourself.

and that's the point isn't it? They put the clothes away and erase the experience from their identity. Until the "urge" strikes again. CD's don't need to walk around with a badge on, but they do need to learn to walk around secure in the knowledge of who they are, and that its totally okay.

OH MY GAWD, can you imagine how the world would end tomorrow if you just accepted who you are?

Acceptance is the hardest part. Some people actually come out to the world BEFORE they accept themselves and that never goes well. They are out, but they are defensive, and easily offended, and angry, and oftentimes extremely conservative in their social views. I talk about self acceptance so much because I KNOW how difficult it is. I also know how powerful it is. Once you truly accept yourself, you will FIND ways to come out that won't interrupt your life. You will find new friends, you may find a new job, you may move to a new city, who knows? Self acceptance is an amazing thing.

I'm going to say this from the start...this is a dead horse thread....we've discussed this topic many many times.

I disagree, it's an extremely worthwhile topic and I WAS avoiding this thread until your post which I found to be ...AWESOME! I loved every word. I re-read it even cuz I was afraid I missed something. It was beautiful and pointed, and deliciously bitchy. Perfect.

A TS most certainly has a different approach to coming out, or so I'm told over and over again by TS folk posing as CD experts on the MtFCD forum, most of whom admit to misidentifying themselves as CDers until the enlightening-bolt hit them, after which they claim to know everything about crossdressers and crossdressing.

...and this. Love it! You know who you are and I respect that immensely. You may be perfectly happy in your life and your secret activity BUT there are CD's out there who are not happy keeping secrets and they should be encouraged at every opportunity to find a friend and take steps toward the light. To learn to love themselves and be okay with being a little freaky. To find the courage inside to claim their place in the world.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

There is a lot of wisdom in Veronica's post about being part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

Thanks Jamie.

I've read many posts about a CDer coming out/going out with wonderful outcomes, and then make the leap that everybody should do the same, thinking everyone's outcome will be as good. We know that many coming out outcomes are disastrous. But those who encourage the coming out aren't there for the consequences.

There are consquences to everything...you could get run over by a car but that doesn't stop you from going outside you house en drab does it? One could also take steps to reduce the likelyhood of bad outcomes. Besides, the more acceptance trans people have in general, the less likely bad things are likely to happen, yes?

So you see a photo of a CDer in a motel room and make the assumption that it's because of shame.

What else would it be derived from? If it's because of DADT and you're keeping it invisible from the wife...at it's core...it's derived from shame, guilt and other negative things. If it's because the wife/partner doesn't know...then it most certainly is hame/guilt/deception. The only time it isn't negative emotion derived... is if one normally dresses at home, but does so while on a trip as well.

But who said I have to have a part?

Well, don't you feel an ethical obligation to help make things better? So that the next generation doesn't hav ethe issues we did?

I'm perfectly content to dress in private, sometimes in hotel rooms, and I have no need to further the cause of greater public acceptance of crossdressing.

Okay then, but what if you're "discovered", don't you want there to be no negative consequences? Don't you want to eventually have people see that being a CD is no big deal? Wouldn't that make your life better and the lives of other transfolk better?

There really is nothing in it for me, so any steps I take to come out benefit CDers who want to be out.

So it's "I'm not my brother's keeper, and if it doesn't benefit me I don't care?". That's a rather selfish attitude don't you think? Don't you have any sort of emotional or empathic feelings for other transpeople? Any steps you do take to come out...benefit you. I mean, wouldn't you like to have human rights protections for transfolk in Mississippi? Wouldn't you like to not have to worry if you let something slip, or are accidentally found out?

If I feel differently, I will reconsider what actions I might take.

WEll, at least that's something.

But I'm a crossdresser This IS the MtFCD forum, isn't it?

Yes, but crossdressers have been going out in public for decades.

A TS most certainly has a different approach to coming out, or so I'm told over and over again by TS folk posing as CD experts on the MtFCD forum, most of whom admit to misidentifying themselves as CDers until the enlightening-bolt hit them, after which they claim to know everything about crossdressers and crossdressing. Posts taken with a grain of salt.

I take it you don't like TS's, then? You don't think that some of the formerly CD identified TS's might have learned a few things and picked up some wisdom in their years of identifying as a CD? You're just not wanting to listen to the "out people" (who are both CD and TS) because they confront your preconceptions and call you out on some of your statements.

It's a little different if you like to go all out and play in the world on occasion. In that case, being in the closet hurts your own spirit. If you're also closeted to the extent that you hate yourself, then that begins to hurt the rest of us because most people who hate themselves promote social policies to punish themselves.

Darn tootin.

...and this is at the root of the issue. People who actively CD but are deeply closeted become so adept at hiding that lying can become second nature to them.

Indeed. I got so good at it I kept up some of it...even after I told my immediate family.

People that are deeply closeted eventually become people that can't be trusted.

I wouldn't say that, but the deception can become habitual.

PS I love love love love you Lori!

I love her too!

I think the larger point to this is coming out to yourself. I know that sounds like psychobabble but when you accept yourself you WANT to be with like minded people. You WANT to support people like you.

Indeed, that's a good thing.

You don't need to come out to your grandma, but certainly your wife,or even your best friend.

My best friend knows...but my grandmothers passed away before I was an adult.

SO many CD's are so suffocated by self hate that their activity becomes dark, and sinister rather than fun and lighthearted. This is the problem with the closet, there's no light in there. It is damn near impossible to feel good about something that you are keeping so secret.

Yes, that is what led to the phrase in the GLBT community: "closets are for clothes...not people" Thy hurt your spirit more than anything else.

Acceptance is the hardest part.......I talk about self acceptance so much because I KNOW how difficult it is. I also know how powerful it is.

Yes, it is....it's a long term thing.

I disagree, it's an extremely worthwhile topic

Fair enough...I do think it's a good topic...I guess I've just seen it come up...and then pass on by so many times.

and I WAS avoiding this thread until your post which I found to be ...AWESOME! I loved every word. I re-read it even cuz I was afraid I missed something. It was beautiful and pointed, and deliciously bitchy. Perfect.

Thanks, I guess. I guess it was a little bitchy..but sometimes we need a bit of that now and then.

You may be perfectly happy in your life and your secret activity BUT there are CD's out there who are not happy keeping secrets and they should be encouraged at every opportunity to find a friend and take steps toward the light. To learn to love themselves and be okay with being a little freaky. To find the courage inside to claim their place in the world.

Indeed, which will lead to more acceptance and better outcomes in the future for everyone.

Veronica

[suzy1]

I am insulted by the presumptions from some members about members like me that choose not go out dressed.
You have no idea how annoying it is to read some of these comments.

Is it not a good idea to stick to commenting on something you understand? Perhaps even develop some empathy and understanding about the REAL reasons why members like me choose not to go out dressed and not put a label on us like ‘we feel shame or guilt or are negative or something.

I have never criticized anyone for going out dressed. Don’t criticize me for not or start telling me the reasons why I don’t go out dressed. You are wrong and b****y annoying. [Especially the one that thinks they are Gods gift to crossdressers]

Grrrrrrrrrrrr

[Badtranny]

[Especially the one that thinks they are Gods gift to crossdressers]

Is it me?

Just curious. ;-)

[Foxglove]

I'd like to echo Suzy's post here. As for myself, I'm currently coming out because I feel it's the right decision for me.

But sometimes there's a refusal to understand someone else's point of view. One of the main reasons for not coming out is that someone is in a marriage with an SO who wants nothing to do with CDing. Then there are people who simply don't feel any need or desire to come out. There are people who fear (and often rightly) the consequences for their family or their job, etc. There are many reasons for not coming out. And there are always so many people who think they can sound someone else's heart and tell them what they find there.

Some people feel they have good reason not to get out. I'd never take it upon myself to judge somebody else's situation. I've had enough trouble judging my own. I certainly wouldn't tell somebody else how to live their life. My own hasn't exactly been a standard of perfection. Neither do I think I have the right to ask someone else to take a huge risk for my sake. Would I take a similar risk purely for their sake? What do they owe me? What do I owe them?

And all this stuff about let's come out to help others. I wonder how many people have come out for that reason. Perhaps each individual has come out for his/her own personal reasons. Yes, altruism is a very good thing, but how many of us can honestly say that's our prime motivation in getting out? I can't say so myself. My motivation is that I don't believe I can do otherwise now.

I've had three outings in public now. Does that make me better than other people? Does it make me feel good about myself to believe I'm better than others? Is that my motive for getting out? Is that what's in it for me? If all getting out is going to do for me is give me a feeling of superiority, maybe I'd do better to stay in the closet.

I'm trying to find a life now, find some freedom. I think I now know what I need and where to find it. Is it my role to tell others what they need and where to find it? I'm not convinced I have that sort of wisdom.

I've been lost for so long. Will I now tell people how to find themselves? I'm not St. Paul and don't want to be.

Annabelle

[Lorileah]

We know that many coming out outcomes are disastrous. But those who encourage the coming out aren't there for the consequences.

Nor are we there for the triumphs. Really at least in my case I would love to be there for both, although the disasters would be less likely because we, who have been out and about, would be there to help direct or control the situation. We can see the train wreck coming and temper it. Personally I will not work with CD who just wants to dress up and then stay home (or in a hotel room) who just wants me to make them up, dress them up and then expect to "play". But I will work with CD who wants to get out, to work on their look (no matter what that is I do have fetish friends). But I do love the triumphs, the look of happiness you can see when someone is finally able to be out as who they really are.

So you see a photo of a CDer in a motel room and make the assumption that it's because of shame.

and I agree with Veronica on this, what else can you assume? OK maybe the weather precluded you from going outside. But wouldn't you rather post a photo of you on your walk? (you can still use the timer) or with a group of people? Or at a nice place? In front of the Empire State building? Yes it is an assumption but it is based on fact and often true. Especially when the accompanying post says "I finally got away from my SO and was t a hotel in another city where I could dress up without having the fear of being caught or seen" (Totally a amalgamation of several posts of similar ilk)

But who said I have to have a part?

No one said you have to, but it would be nice if you would. So many here complain about not "being able" but then they shy away from making it happen. I am sure that MLK would have been a lot happier and safer being a minister in a small church somewhere. Well as happy as a man who was considered a second class citizen , who was told that he could not certain things, that some rights were meant for other and not for him. He could have lived his life in relative peace. But he didn't. Cesar Chavez? Same thing. The people at Stonewall...could have crawled away and just gone back to what they were doing. Gloria Steinem, Margret Sanger, Susan B Anthony. Could have just stayed home. Granted now that these people are still struggling to get total equality under the law, but they started the ball rolling.

I'm perfectly content to dress in private, sometimes in hotel rooms, and I have no need to further the cause of greater public acceptance of crossdressing. There really is nothing in it for me [

You are right, nothing for you and once again I will reference the poem written after WWII by Rev Martin Niemöller,

so any steps I take to come out benefit CDers who want to be out. If I feel differently, I will reconsider what actions I might take.

Hopefully just before they come for you.

A TS most certainly has a different approach to coming out,

As would any sub-group here. And this is an issue that I don't like to see here. WE have such infighting between sub-groups we don't get much accomplished as a whole. However when was teh last post you saw by a "TS" who said "OMG I am so afrid of what the world will say I will just hide and wait until things get better on their own"? Hey, any thing we post here is to help support or advance the OP's life, I hope.

... being in the closet hurts your own spirit. If you're also closeted to the extent that you hate yourself, then that begins to hurt the rest of us because most people who hate themselves promote social policies to punish themselves.

It really does. If I may put my personal experience in this (from years of being "just a CD" and now identifying as a "TS"), I was not a happy camper, I was angry and withdrawn and unsocial. As Lori, I am none of those things and it is spilling over to my "en drab" life. People like me..people really really like me. It could be said for many things in life we keep bottled up and hidden. Bad marriages, bad jobs, living where you don't want to live, not finishing your degree, not writing that book. So many things we DON'T do because we are so busy doing what others think we SHOULD do. It takes awhile for many to see this, that life is short enough, that by not being happy it makes it worse.

People who actively CD but are deeply closeted become so adept at hiding that lying can become second nature to them.

and it becomes easy and then it becomes routine and then you spill it over to other things.

People that are deeply closeted eventually become people that can't be trusted.

This is how the SO's see it also. What else do you lie about? Now when you say you have a business trip, how do I know you have business? Trust is equity, it takes time to build but seconds to destroy.

CD's don't need to walk around with a badge on, but they do need to learn to walk around secure in the knowledge of who they are, and that its totally okay.

As long as "we" believe the bad press, we will never see ourselves as good and decent people. Admit it, when you are complimented as an outstanding individual, you get that fleeting moment of "ah but if you only knew what I did last night in the hotel room...you would have a different idea". It takes away the specialty of who you are. My hope is that someday, at least the fear of being "discovered" will be moot.

Acceptance is the hardest part. Self acceptance is an amazing thing.

My new mantra. And true. When you feel good, you project that. When you project that people actually see you as someone who has something they need or want. They want to know you, they want to be with you. This is a self perpetuating thing. Look at athletes, people tell them they are good, they get better, them people tell them they are really good, then they get jobs where you wonder how they got it. It works in most professions, confidence builds business.

There are consquences to everything...you could get run over by a car but that doesn't stop you from going outside you house en drab does it? One could also take steps to reduce the likelyhood of bad outcomes. Besides, the more acceptance trans people have in general, the less likely bad things are likely to happen, yes?

and 99% of what we worry about never happens unless we make it happen. I only regret the things I didn't do, I learned from the failures I did.

"closets are for clothes...not people" Thy hurt your spirit more than anything else.

And at the end of the day you have to be happy for yourself. Other than your SO and children, you are the most important person in your life. Although I still shelter my father and brother from "me" and this is probably a wrong move, my family should accept me from love, not by what I present but by what I do. How did MLK put it

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

. It is not far off the mark here. Change a word or two. I have a dream children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the clothing they wear, the feelings about themselves, how they present physically to the world, , but by the content of their character.

As long as people see things as "different" from what they are, there will be prejudice. But as time goes by and these things become more common, then "different" becomes less noticeable. Hiding does not do this. It does not mean we need to be "in your face", not at all, but we do have to be seen. In order to do that "we" have to take the first step and accept ourselves.

But don't worry, I am going to present and represent. Small spit in the ocean thing but maybe someday our children will be able to wear what they like, love who they want, live a life that does not have to be hidden. Yes I have a dream, I may not make it to the mountain top with you, but someday "our" people will stand upon it (OK got a little maudlin there sorry)