This is why I find DADT so frustrating...(a GG perspective)

[Meghan]

I am a bit hesitant to get involved. This is a very, very tough situation and I have strong feelings on both sides.

DoorMat, judging by your choice of a forum name and the information you've relayed, it appears you believe your H's obsession with dressing is more important than you are, and he is putting your needs behind H's own agenda.

It's a struggle. It's possible that H believes now this is out in the open, it's OK to push it and take every opportunity to dress. But it sounds like there were communication and prioritization issues before this ever came out. I don't know, but it's possible that this is coming out because H feels he has nothing left to lose by going for it, so to speak, and that you're pretty set that this isn't what you expect or want from a partner.

My wife and I play in some very open and vulnerable places mentally, and it still took me five years of a completely open environment before I could really come out to her. It scared her for a while. but she made it safe for me to come out.

I make it OK for her to express her worst and best sides, with complete security that I won't ever go for the things that she's shared with me, both good and bad. In exchange she does the same for me.

I challenged that trust when I held this back. I had talked myself into thinking it wasn't real so I misled her as well as myself. At some point, I had to bring it out, I couldn't talk myself out of it any more and it was affecting our communication.

Once it was out, though, I went at her pace even when it was almost impossible to control myself and not just run for the panty drawer!

I can understand how I might have behaved if trust wasn't involved. I can see how it could have quickly spiraled out of control and degenerated into something awful if trust wasn't a foundation of our relationship.

Was your trust gone for you long before you found out? Is there a chance you could repair the breach or has the levee broken forever?

Our relationship is far from perfect, but we both had the advantages of a failed first marriage where trust was lost (or never gained). We were honest about who we were, or at least as much as we could be, when we wrote to each other well before we ever met.

The problem is, no one knows 100% about themselves. We all make mistakes and make incorrect estimates based on our own flawed assessment of ourselves. I guess the question is: is there room for someone to update their "resume" as they learn, or did they lie on their resume to get the job (and did they do so knowingly or out of ignorance)?

I don't think any of this is advice at all...just a few thoughts about trust and relationships. I hope something here helps either one of you get through this tough time. If you love each other, and if you truly want to repair what you've broken, then you have to start with trust and you have to keep your commitment to yourselves and each other no matter how hard it gets. I don't think any relationship can work long-term without it.

Meghan

[Erica2Sweet]

DM cannot move H. He has to move himself.

By the same token, neither H nor anybody at CD.com can make DM change her feelings/views.

If either one of them feels that they cannot continue in the relationship without the other changing, the relationship is not long for this world. But if they can make a truce on this issue -- something that both can live with, if not like -- and will hold to it like grown-ups, there may be a possibility of time working some sort of magic...

Beautifully worded wisdom. I love this.

[Sometimes Steffi]

DM

I want to thank you very much for being brave enough and honest enough with your post. And the little bit of anger mixed in made it very believable.

Hi Doormat and thank you so very much for your post.
My wife and I are in the same situation as you and your H are. The only difference is that I've accepted the fact that my wife does not want to see me dressed or participate in any girly activities with the "man" that she married.
Another difference is that my wife didn't say I looked silly, she said it creeps her out. You've provided me confirmation that she doesn't love me any less, she just doesn't want a girlfriend who sleeps with her.
Simple, huh? And I get it.

What we all want here, are those women who will accept and will embrace and will go to bed with us dressed. So many threads abound on this site with the bliss of an accepting partner. We sometimes get caught up in the fantasy and selfishly expect our wives to embrace our hobby. Most times the wanting of acceptance overshadows the reality of the situation.

A majority of us must step back and try to remember that our wives have likes and needs and feelings too.

I think this is about where my wife is. She is very uncomfortable with it. At one time I had the hope that she would accept or maybe even embrace my crossdressing. But, in talking to my therapist about it, I realized that I can not control her. Now my goal is for her to tolerate it within some reasonable boundaries.

She has said many times that she doesn't want to see me dressed. She could never get that picture out of her head. She also told me she doesn't ever want to go out as "girlfriends". Some of us (OK, maybe me) are entranced and encouraged by those CDs who have wives or SOs who not only embrace, but encourage their husband's CDing. And believe it or not, I know several CDs (or maybe they're TSs) who are on hormones and still married. I even know one who has fully transitioned. So, maybe their wive's are really special, but we can dream can't we. I guess not.

One last thing. I finally get it. You saved one other wife from going through what you are going through. I just hope she will tolerate me enough to allow me to go out every once in a while.

[Asche]

(Warning: Tangent ahead!)

Whilst I accept your philosophical perspective, I disagree... we move people by influence and structured arguement.

If by "structured argument" you mean rational argumentation, I would respectfully disagree. I've never seen anyone convinced simply by rational argument. The most you can do is to offer people arguments with which they can convince themselves.

And there's a good reason: in real life, most disagreements aren't due to logical errors, they're due to conflicts of interest, values, needs, desires, attitudes, tastes, etc. Resolving them requires re-evaluating priorities, making compromises, changing one's own attitude, etc. And this usually only happens if the people involved feel safe (=not threatened) enough to consider giving things (such as old attitudes) up. Argumentation usually makes people defensive and less likely to reconsider their position.

What I see going on in this forum (to the extent that what goes on is positive) is people being exposed to different ways people live and see the world. If they're receptive, they can learn and maybe change themselves. That may be "influence", but it's not argumentation.

[TVAmanda]

Are you implying that a woman has to be potentially sexually compatible with someone who exhibits gender identity issues in order to have any sort of mutual connection (intellectual or otherwise)?

If so, I can tell you from experience, this is completely false. What you don't seem to be acknowledging is the fact that, for someone with gender identity issues, there's more to connecting with other people than just playing dress-up.

Erica2Sweet we are not talking about a mutual connection (intellectual or otherwise) here we are talking about a marriage, which is a sexual institution. You need to read these things with reference and in context to what the original poster said.

[Erica2Sweet]

Erica2Sweet we are not talking about a mutual connection (intellectual or otherwise) here we are talking about a marriage, which is a sexual institution. You need to read these things with reference and in context to what the original poster said.

Please forgive me for not reading your post the way you wanted me to.

[nikki626]

IMO, this is why I probably won't say a word to my future SO about my hobby. I rather keep it a secret rather than have her be involved in my hobby that she wants no part of.

[STACY B]

IMO, this is why I probably won't say a word to my future SO about my hobby. I rather keep it a secret rather than have her be involved in my hobby that she wants no part of.

Smartest thing I herd all day ,,,If ya wife dont like it at all your LIFE will be alot Better off not involving her ,,Cuz you can't change people . If there dead set on hating it your screwed an alot of chix real GGs chix dont want nothing to do with it ,,They like there MEN to be MEN not little girly girls an they want to feel protected an safe an it Scares the hell out of them to see you all Dolled up like a girl an it takes all the life out of there image of what they thought you were .No matter what you say they will never be the same ,,It will take YEARS to get past it ,,If ya think you cant go without doing it ,,,HIDE like hell or Break Camp an get a you know what ,,,You wont be the first one that has done it !!

[Amanda22]

I wish you and your husband the best outcome for you both, whether that is together or separate. I won't be a referee because it doesn't seem fair. When you have your talk, I hope you're both guided by your intuition of what's best for each of you. Good luck!

[ReineD]

... my H has actually been dressing for most of his life, but not very often and even now that we are in the middle of this 'war' he still says he only needs to dress once a week, sometimes only once a month.

...

I've pondered everyone's thoughts posted here and have realized that he's probably decided he does need more acceptance from me. But why now? I am not sure.

Because it takes a while for CDers to give themselves permission to stop repressing it. Men are strongly socialized to reject any part of femininity within themselves. If your husband's need to express femininity was not strong, believe me he would still be happy in a DADT arrangement. It is quite common to take some years for the need to surface ... since it is buried deep while young.

Would it be fair to say that CD is a part of the person? It's very hard as a GG to understand how dressing as the opposite gender can be a 'part' of someone, but I'm really trying.

Yes, it is a part of who he is.

If it is a part of my H, then I can sort of understand why he would need validation of this part. I just wish I wasn't to repelled by the whole thing. Someone here was very correct when they mentioned socialization and upbringing. At no point was I taught of crossdressing or even knew men did such a thing! Men are men and women and women and everything else is seen on stage. lol

Right. You will need to learn to look at gender differently than we've been taught and I agree, it isn't easy. And yes, it is repulsive to many GGs to see their husbands in dresses. But this is because of a lack of exposure to anyone who is gender non-conforming, as you point out. We humans are always more comfortable with the things that we are familiar with.

Your husband is the same person you fell in love with and this will not change. He still wants to be your husband. You may not want to read this just yet, but I've seen it happen time and time again here ... if a wife determines that the CDing is not some "weird" fetish thing that threatens to take her husband's affection away from her, she can learn to actually stop seeing the clothes as "changing" who her husband is, in other words, she will cease to believe that the clothes are turning him into someone he is not.

.
He really is a good husband otherwise and on an intellectual level I know he didn't choose this path. But neither did I, and often times I think of all the other paths I would rather walk down and all the other things I'd rather think about/do with my H. I understand this is something he MUST do, but it's infinitely sad to me that we are at such odds with the things we like to do together. Crossdressing is definitely an enigma.

Yes it is an enigma. I tried to understand my SO's and other member's motives for years, and just when I think I get it, someone will say something that shows me that I don't get it at all. lol. So now I just accept that my SO has a need that I do not understand. As to not wanting this in your life, when you think of it, many of us have things that we do not want in our lives but that we finds ways to cope with when they present themselves, anything from the loss of jobs, to a child born with a disability, to a son being gay, to the house burning down. I hate to compare the CDing with all these things that many people believe to be negative, but I'm just saying that people do cope with the way that their lives unfold.

Another important consideration is for both you and your husband to be on the same page as to who should know about this and who shouldn't. Most of the time, (unless a husband is TS and needs to live full or near full time), CDers are quite happy to not have coworkers/family/friends know. The reality is that much of the world does not understand the CDing, and unless a person is entirely self-sufficient (own business with clients in other towns for example), there is a risk of some loss when people do know.

.
But back to the DADT and my H pushing CD on me, I have decided to sit him down and have a straight conversation with him as this can't carry on. Talking here has made me realize that he probably isn't doing this to intentionally hurt me and that he likely just wants me to acknowledge this part of him exists. But he also needs to BACK OFF and let me deal in my time. This is going way too fast.

The bold is my emphasis.

This is the BEST possible attitude that you can have, and yes he is going way too fast!

OK first let's separate the pink-foggish things you described earlier ... if your husband sincerely is pushing you to "have fun" putting on his makeup or painting his nails, taking pics, having dress up nights as you both giggle into oblivion, he's got to change his attitude. This is not at all realistic when it comes to participation from a reluctant wife and as you pointed out, these are not things that women past their teenage years do.

BUT, if he is asking you to sit with him while he's dressed to talk about the regular things the two of you talk about, in other words, your permission that he can just "be" himself in your presence occasionally (at least for as long as it takes for him to trust that you do not outright reject him), then he will be well served to go about this at YOUR pace, just like you said. If you feel pushed and backed into a corner, this will not help at all.

If he cannot understand your position, I'm afraid there is a risk that the two of you will turn this into a power struggle, a sort of two-sided, push/pull where he is adamant that he is entitled to be who he is, and you are adamant that you are entitled to your feelings against it, with no possibility of open-mindedness and compromise on either part. This sort of scenario is a no-win for each one of you.

The two of you must never lose sight of each other and your respective needs, or the importance of maintaining the health of your relationship, and if you keep THIS in the forefront of your minds, it will make the give and take and the compromises between you all that much easier.

And I'm glad that you actually said "in my time". This means that you are not closing the door on this entirely, and so there is hope that eventually, in your time, your husband will not feel as if he must continue to keep a part of who he is from you.

.
I do have one question: given what I have read here and how addictive CD seems to be for many men, will any further tolerance on my part cause my H to escalate his dressing? I don't think I could handle that, but it's a big fear. I also don't want to be seen as a control freak who refuses to learn or understand because of a fear of escalation, but I really do worry that he might fall further into this 'pink fog' you all talk of.

Yes, there is a likelihood that as your acceptance grows, your husband will want to take it out of your home and go to a TG support group for example. And this will mean making cosmetic changes to his appearance so that he doesn't look like a guy in a dress when he goes out. But keep in mind (although you may not be ready to see this) that by the time he is ready to do this, it may not be a stretch for you either. So my best advice is to take it once step at a time and always be cognizant of one another's head space (without getting into power struggles).

Also, please know that many CDers do have the desire to go out (my SO does) and this does not mean they are turning into women or they want to sleep with men. You might want to read my second paragraph in my post #20, if you are interested in knowing what the CDing looks like with my SO and I. And allow me to emphasize, my SO rarely, RARELY dresses at home any more. He just doesn't need to. He knows that he has no constraints on his freedom and this makes a huge difference.

.
And in response to the question about whether my H looking really good as a woman would have made me feel better and even possibly turned me on? Hell no! lol. I'm sexually and emotionally attracted to all things masculine - the smell, the look, the texture of a man.

The turn-on part, I'm afraid is a rather common CD fantasy. But, it comes from a desire to want this part of themselves to be accepted by their wives. Also, many (most?) CDers believe themselves to be quite unattractive as men.

No, I didn't' sign up for this as I didn't know for the first 9 years! And I have told my H this exact thing - that he should have married a bisexual girl during one of our more volatile conversations and honestly, I think he honestly believes all women ARE bisexual. It's just so hard for him to comprehend that someone might not like femininty. It's conversations like this that have driven me here. I now see this is inappropriate and uncommon behavior for most CD men and I will be letting him know this!

Oh believe me, being bisexual is not a guarantee for acceptance. I have a female friend who is bi. She told me once that she likes her men to be men, and her women to be women. A flexible sexual attraction CAN make a difference when it comes to accepting a CDer in the bedroom, but only IF a person is accepting of non-conforming gender to begin with. The two are actually not related.

And he really does need to stop projecting his love of femininity onto you and everyone else, although judging by some of the threads I've read here, it is rather common to do this. I don't get it either.

[Badtranny]

Geez RD, you are spectacular.

I'm humbled by your awesomeness and amazed by your insightful-ness. (I know it's not a word but I like alliteration!)

[Moxie]

CDers believe themselves to be quite unattractive as men.

I didn't realize this but it sure makes a lot of sense. My H is a very attractive man yet he's actually very humble about this, if not oblivous. It makes sense now, though I find it incredulous that he thinks he's attractive when in female clothing! I guess this is the illusion so many here speak of.

And thanks for answering my other questions. I have much to think about. But really, if I'm honest, the place I'd like to reach would have me not thinking about CD at all! I find the worry and fear the worst part of all this. My annoying female brain never turns off when it latches onto anything vaguely concerning - my kids would tell you this! If my H did have a female side to him I imagine he'd worry a lot more about this than he does. Seems I'm doing enough worrying for the both of us.

I am interested in the FAB forum as I imagine I might find some good answers to my situation there too. Though, hearing the CD side has been very important as I don't know how my H really feels as being so close to the situation, it's very hard for either of us to communicate this at the moment. So hearing everyone's views/opinions has been great, even if some of it was difficult to read. The escalation in particular as I do feel this might be too much for me.

And yes, I do think other issues aside from CD have pushed us to this point - the family issues included. So perhaps a counselor might help us address these so I can figure out the CD better.

Meanwhile, I'll look wistfully back on the DADT days when I didn't have to think about this so much. For those H's living DADT, if it's not too stressful for you I do think it's probably best for wives who feel like me. I often wish I didn't know of his CD at all as it really has affected how I see him. And before everyone suggests I'm being close-minded here, the reality is you are all hard-wired to dress as women, while I am hard-wired to want a masculine man. I can't help this no matter how much I understand or learn to accept that he crossdresses. This need in me will never change, and I will be heartbroken if he can't meet these needs for me anymore.

Thanks again. DM

[ReineD]

I didn't realize this but it sure makes a lot of sense. My H is a very attractive man yet he's actually very humble about this, if not oblivous. It makes sense now, though I find it incredulous that he thinks he's attractive when in female clothing! I guess this is the illusion so many here speak of.

Well, I suppose it can be looked at as an illusion in the strictest sense, if we keep in mind that they are genetic, male-bodied men who feel a need to present as women. To the onlooker it does look as if they are creating an illusion. But you need to know that this thing called "gender" is more than just the bodies we are born with. There is a lot of information about this online, but basically gender is comprised of three components:

1) The physical self (primary and secondary sexual characteristics),
2) Gender identity (which gender that the brain more closely aligns with),
3) Gender role & presentation (our preferences, and the ways that we feel comfortable presenting ourselves).

Among cisgenders (people like you and me), there is absolutely no discordance between (1), (2), & (3). Everything matches, and so we don't think of them as separate things. Among transsexuals, (1) is in direct and complete opposition to (2) & (3) and TSs are very unhappy until they can make (1) match (2) & (3). Among CDers, it varies a great deal, but there is definitely a discordance between some of (3) & (1), and there may even be some discordance between some of (2) & (1) as well. But not fully, and not always, so transition would be a huge mistake ... it's all rather complex, difficult to measure and define, and the vast differences between individual CDers are influenced by more variables than I can list. Plus, there can be mild discordance, or stronger discordance, even if it never reaches full discordance as it does in transsexuals.

Anyway is it an illusion when a CDer is true to his need to look like a woman in order to resolve the degree of discordance he experiences (there is a reason that he doesn't believe himself to be attractive as a man)? I guess that's up for debate, but I don't see it that way.

And thanks for answering my other questions. I have much to think about. But really, if I'm honest, the place I'd like to reach would have me not thinking about CD at all! I find the worry and fear the worst part of all this. My annoying female brain never turns off when it latches onto anything vaguely concerning - my kids would tell you this! If my H did have a female side to him I imagine he'd worry a lot more about this than he does. Seems I'm doing enough worrying for the both of us.

I know DM. It is much easier to not think about any of this. But, .... this doesn't make it go away.

Not to monopolize you or anything (I promise I'll be quiet after this), but I'll tell you a story. About 3-4 years before I knew my SO, I made friends with a woman whose husband turned out to be a CDer. We belonged to a women's group together, and the first time I saw her husband there (dressed as a woman), was the first time in my life I had seen a CDer. So I was rather like all those "other" accepting GG SAs and nail techs. lol. I didn't judge him, but I did have a mild curiosity. It took a few meetings before my brain constructed a new file folder for a new type of person that I had not encountered before, which was a genetic male who was not a drag queen, who was not gay, yet who needed to present as a woman. But in rather short order, seeing her on a regular basis just became normal for me and I began to think of my friend's husband as the person that I saw shine through from the inside more than by the manner of dress. We did get to know each other over the years as my friendship with the wife developed, and I had ample opportunities to meet the husband in both male and female modes. We were all friends. I also knew their marriage was good, and so the notions I had previously held about CDers were dispelled.

So I did have rather a leg up on the CDing by the time I met my SO. Still when he told me, my first (silent) reaction was "Oh, no! Is he gay?" No matter how accepting I had been towards my friend's husband, and how accustomed I had become to seeing her dressed, he wasn't my husband! And I had just never imagined that I might be in a relationship with a CDer since they are either rather rare, or deeply closeted. And no matter how nice was my friend's husband, I entered the relationship with my SO with a bit of (silent) trepidation, wondering how it would all play out. So you see, you are not alone and despite my exposure to a friend who CDs, my SO and I still had many growing pains with the CDing as she developed a clearer undertanding of what it all meant to her (this is a nice way of saying while she went through her own Pink Fog), and while I redefined my prior understanding of gender and gender roles in a romantic relationship (even though he presents as a guy the bulk of the time), including my own. :p

But I promise you, if you can try to wipe your mind free of what you had previously thought about gender and instead try to see your husband's soul, it will get better ... for you, just as much if not more than for him. It does eventually, really all fall into place.

[Sarasometimes]

Thank you Doormat for sharing your painful ordeal with us. I have few comments; Firstly, I think you may gain some solace if you can find someone to confide in about your situation that is as unbiased as possible. Talking with a friend who can't fathom your desire to stay married will not help you much nor would someone who can't fathom you seperating. Finding a good therapist/counseller who is knowledgeable in gender issues is a tough thing to do but that would be my first suggestion. Getting an understanding as to why your H needs to do this may help. I"ve been going to therapy for several years to better understand and manage my closeted (akaDADT) dressing and when the subject of bringing my wife up to speed is discussed I can't get past the you can't unsay something and you really hit on this and I thank you for that. If I venture down this path and she doesn't want it we are done. I can't say "oh nevermind i was kidding". I feel for you having images that bother you and I think a therapist may help with those.
One thing that may help ever so slightly is if you ask yourself one question about your H. Does he have good qualities that are somewhat considered feminine (examples: nuturing with your kids. Has a fashion sense when buying you gifts?...Does he skip the macho crap/ I'm a stay at home dad and I know that some of my ways of doing that are shaped by my place on the gender expression contiuum. I don't have a need to hang with the boys, flirt and act macho.
Best of luck to you and as we know life is short so do work toward making yourself happy in a way that is best for you, your children and then your H.

[Meghan]

OK first let's separate the pink-foggish things you described earlier ... if your husband sincerely is pushing you to "have fun" putting on his makeup or painting his nails, taking pics, having dress up nights as you both giggle into oblivion, he's got to change his attitude. This is not at all realistic when it comes to participation from a reluctant wife and as you pointed out, these are not things that women past their teenage years do.

While I 100% agree that this is not something a reluctant wife is willing to put up with, is it possible the dressup/take pictures/stay up late/slumber party phase is just that? A phase? After burying things for so long, I personally believe it to be a way to learn the skills that women have (and teens don't). If my theory is correct, the "female" identity essentially gets put into a deepfreeze around puberty (or when sufficient negative influence makes it harder to keep going, it's easier psychologically to repress it). I think it sits, in a dormant state until the cat is out of the bag.

As soon as "she" is back in the world again (and out of the back of the brain), she wants to develop and grow and catch up to the rest of the world. I think this explains the mad obsession with playing dressup and perhaps the pink fog. Like all life, the female side wants to not just survive but flourish. It can't automatically catch up because it hasn't been socialized past age 10 or 11. I think it's asking a lot to expect it to just be mature. IMPOSING this side on friends, partners, spouses and kids is not acceptable though. Everyone in the support system needs time to adapt and learn, not just "her". People need time to decide if they want to stay in or "opt out" too.

BUT, if he is asking you to sit with him while he's dressed to talk about the regular things the two of you talk about, in other words, your permission that he can just "be" himself in your presence occasionally (at least for as long as it takes for him to trust that you do not outright reject him), then he will be well served to go about this at YOUR pace, just like you said. If you feel pushed and backed into a corner, this will not help at all.

I think we all can get there with time. I think it's totally unfair of H to push it and impose the rules of engagement though. I think both need to work out a plan to maturity which respects boundaries and trust.

Also, please know that many CDers do have the desire to go out (my SO does) and this does not mean they are turning into women or they want to sleep with men. You might want to read my second paragraph in my post #20, if you are interested in knowing what the CDing looks like with my SO and I. And allow me to emphasize, my SO rarely, RARELY dresses at home any more. He just doesn't need to. He knows that he has no constraints on his freedom and this makes a huge difference.

I believe your husband has evolved over time and learned along the way, from you and your help and support. I bet he's supported you some, too, during this process.

But, it comes from a desire to want this part of themselves to be accepted by their wives. Also, many (most?) CDers believe themselves to be quite unattractive as men.

This has always been true for me. Put on makeup and looked in the mirror when I was 10 or 11-ish, that's the first time I every thought of myself as attractive. GREAT POINT!!!

This is a fascinating discussion. Thank you both for sharing it with us.

Meghan

[outhiking]

IMO, this is why I probably won't say a word to my future SO about my hobby. I rather keep it a secret rather than have her be involved in my hobby that she wants no part of.

If CD'ing is truly just a hobby for you, then you can take it or leave it and this would work out. However, for most of us it's deeply a part of who we are. I'm ashamed that I never shared it with my wife-to-be so many years ago. Still, I'd rather she know now then accidentily walk in on me or see some female clothing that's not her's and fear that I'm cheating on her. Ours is a DADT situation, but accidents do happen.

[ReineD]

While I 100% agree that this is not something a reluctant wife is willing to put up with, is it possible the dressup/take pictures/stay up late/slumber party phase is just that? A phase?

Yes these types of behaviors are very much a phase, thankfully. But this does not mean it is OK to insist that a wife participate in all the "glee" when she is trying to wrap her mind around the CDing. DM's husband needs to be realistic about his wife's state of mind, in other words, he needs to get out of the Pink Fog if he is, in fact, insisting that DM participate as if she was as enthralled about this particular brand of femininity as he is.

[Meghan]

Yes these types of behaviors are very much a phase, thankfully. But this does not mean it is OK to insist that a wife participate in all the "glee" when she is trying to wrap her mind around the CDing. DM's husband needs to be realistic about his wife's state of mind, in other words, he needs to get out of the Pink Fog if he is, in fact, insisting that DM participate as if she was as enthralled about this particular brand of femininity as he is.

100% agree!

I try to follow an honor, don't offer rule most of the time and I would suggest that to H...if the wife asks, talk away. If she doesn't, find another outlet...like here, or find a girlfriend to call etc. Join a support group! Secondlife worked for me for a couple of years too.

And I totally understand that's not always a followable rule 100% of the time...it's hard. It's really hard.

If H follows the rule 50% of the time that's going to be WAY too much for her. If H follows it 95% of the time it might still be overwhelming. DM needs all the time she needs to adjust to what, for her, is a new reality even though it's always been present for H at some level, whether consciously or not.

Meghan

[UNDERDRESSER]

Also, many (most?) CDers believe themselves to be quite unattractive as men..

Interesting, I think this applies ( applied? ) to me.

Now I have a GF, who makes no bones about how attractive she finds me ( irrespective of how I am dressed ) I am finding my feelings on this subject are changing. i still want to dress in a body conscious way, but i am leaning more towards doing it with more male apparel. IIt helps that I work for a company that allows sporty clothing ( even somewhat encourages it )

I've said before, that I think some CD urges come from the fact that it isn't generally accepted for males to dress in a body displaying fashion. The old joke, "Cycling shorts look more ridiculuous the further you get from the bike" comes to mind.

[ReineD]

The old joke, "Cycling shorts look more ridiculuous the further you get from the bike" comes to mind.

And also, the further you get from healthy BMI. lol ... and this goes for GGs as well. :p

But seriously, the idea of not feeling attractive in male mode is behind a seemingly universal distaste for taking pride in and building up a decent male wardrobe. Even my own SO falls into this, and just this year, he finally bought new clothes for himself for the first time since I've known him. And they do look very nice! (BTW, my SO is also gorgeous as a male).

[UNDERDRESSER]

And also, the further you get from healthy BMI. lol ... and this goes for GGs as well. :p

But seriously, the idea of not feeling attractive in male mode is behind a seemingly universal distaste for taking pride in and building up a decent male wardrobe. Even my own SO falls into this, and just this year, he finally bought new clothes for himself for the first time since I've known him. And they do look very nice! (BTW, my SO is also gorgeous as a male).

So true! Yes, I am starting to get more interested in building up my male wardrobe, with my SO's support I should add. I'm going to be looking at some Indian inspired stuff she has talked about, still a bit feminine looking from a Western perspective.

I think some of my distaste for a bigger male wardrobe has been that I see much of as displaying how financially succesful one is. I don't like that, and anyway, I've never been that succesfull financially!

[ReineD]

I think some of my distaste for a bigger male wardrobe has been that I see much of as displaying how financially succesful one is. I don't like that, and anyway, I've never been that succesfull financially!

And you don't think this is true for women as well? :D

Think of all the high priced designer clothes and the expensive fine jewelry, pricey Louboutin shoes, $700 leather bags, etc. These are definitely economic status symbols, that the less expensive clothing & accessories manufacturers strive to mimic.

[UNDERDRESSER]

And you don't think this is true for women as well? :D

Think of all the high priced designer clothes and the expensive fine jewelry, pricey Louboutin shoes, $700 leather bags, etc. These are definitely economic status symbols, that the less expensive clothing & accessories manufacturers strive to mimic.

Good point, but they may have been bought by a previous BF, and the primary purpose is to display the body don't you think? It is also fairly easy to find cheap female clothes that can display in a similar manner.

[ReineD]

Good point, but they may have been bought by a previous BF, and the primary purpose is to display the body don't you think? It is also fairly easy to find cheap female clothes that can display in a similar manner.

No. The choice of presentation/adornment, for everyone, is very much a desire to reflect one's socio-economic status and values, whether a person likes to portray him/herself as an academic type, a bohemian type, an athletic type, a relaxed shabby/chic type, a successful business person, etc.

People use clothes to reflect who they feel they are and this goes for cisgenders as well as people who use clothes to reflect an alternative internal gender.

Just look at all the varied styles here, anything from the hippie chic, the goth, the business woman, the suburban wife ... each one of these looks reflects a particular socio-economic class.

[Julie Gaum]

A lot has been written with opinions supporting two sides but not "Fifty Shades of Gray". Doormat: You don't intend to be evasive and you are trying to be completely honest. For that I applaud you; however with all that you have typed I would summarize it as "My way or the highway". No, there is much more beyond career woman and children in this discussion that you can't bring yourself to reveal on this Forum. In my humble opinion either find a good gender therapist to unload with (First alone and then with "H") or pack it in ..... life is too short.
Julie