The elephant in MY room is starting to make some noise

I'll make this as quick as I can, we shall see how successful am.

Those who know me in these pages understand that I have pushed many limits when it comes to minor body modifications (©VM ;)) and this has fed into my elephant in the room theory about how others perceive these things. For example...

Shave the legs, hmmm, he does ride a road bike you know. Does everyone notice? Sure. Anyone really say anything, not so much.

Wax the eyebrows, things kind of begin and end with a hmmm. Have been called out on this once. People would have to be blind not to notice that I've done something here.

Facial hair removal via electrolysis. We're doing a gradual clearing and at this point, the trees are non-existent on the entire cheeks and noticeably less-dense about the goatee area. Anyone else notice? Not so sure but then again, I do tweeze the rest when I go out so there is zero growth or shadow for about a week thereafter. That has to look a bit odd.

Put all these together and people could conceivably come to some sort of TG conclusion but i'd be paranoid to suggest that this would be likely. The elephant is in the room but she's still being good.

Now add the long hair. I'm here to say all bets are off at this time. I've said before, the elephant in my room has started to sing some show tunes. I'm thinking others are starting to hear her melody.

Case in point, meeting up with some friends a few weeks ago. I was the last to arrive when one of them greets me with "hey birthday girl". This is one of my best friends and I've shrugged off several similar comments in the recent past. This was simply another one.

The latest, was at a nearby restaurant bar watching game 6 of Kings vs. Devils (painful for moi given that I'm a Ducks fan). Was with another one of my best friends who I have written about in the past (ie - calling me out on my eyebrows, saying "your daddy smells like a girl", etc.). He is bugging me to get onto Facebook (guy mode, of course) of which I have no interest (I do have a "Sara" account set up that I've done little to nothing with). He says the other day "don't worry, no one will find out you're a crossdresser by going on Facebook".

My reply, "you promise?".

Lame but it was the best I could do.

I've promised myself of late that if any of my close friends were to call me out on this TG thing, that I would be honest in coming clean. Thing is, he missed the mark ever-so-slightly by using the term crossdresser so I'm keeping to my promise by not educating him on the nuances of the TG spectrum. Still, I'm quite sure he is seeing and hearing my elephant loud and clear at this point, probably waiting until I bite on one of his jabs. Someday I may do so but out of respect for my wife who desires zero disclosure to others, I will not go there until he hits the bullseye, so to speak.

I've had in mind to share this tale but there is a very important reason why I'm doing so now. Tis the season for some in these pages to let that body fur grow back and the advice is oft given that no one will notice, just stay smooth. This is not true. People do notice these things. The average dude does not sport smooth legs. But these days, people process it and with enough sporting reasons out there for smooth legs along with the modest metrosexual trend. They are conditioned to think little or nothing of it. But my tale is a lesson for those who choose to keep their TG nature bottled up away from those closest to them, keep piling the mods on as I have done and your elephant may be hard to keep quiet as well. It all depends on what your own personal situation is, how much you want out there.

I would say that the elephant is sitting on your friend at this point. I do like your rule about telling. I have a similar one that if I am busted in sight or word, then I will admit it. The tap dancing route has its own pitfalls and I don't want to go there. I did do it once and have felt guilty since. And someone else has mentioned my elephant in the room to me recently......

But people do realize something is up with the changes. The part is whether they know enough to do the math. Some people just aren't going to suspect this because it isn't in the forefront of their mind. And you have that extra barrier of the agreement with your wife. That does bring up a conflict. What if your best friend hit the mark closer and asked if you were TG? Now if you admit it, you go against your wife's wishes. That can be a tough thing to work through. When we choose to push things forward, we do cause ourselves these dilemmas that we need to think about in advance.

Great points Sue. Seems our elephants know one another!!! ;)

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Originally Posted by Sue

I would say that the elephant is sitting on your friend at this point.

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D'ya think???

She's not being a very nice elephant.

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Originally Posted by Sue

But people do realize something is up with the changes. The part is whether they know enough to do the math.

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Those who end up doing the math end sometimes end up solving the equation without knowing how they got there.

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Originally Posted by Sue

What if your best friend hit the mark closer and asked if you were TG? Now if you admit it, you go against your wife's wishes. That can be a tough thing to work through. When we choose to push things forward, we do cause ourselves these dilemmas that we need to think about in advance.

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Good question. He's never going to hit the mark but if he were to simply ask a question instead of blurting out these smart-ass comments, I would be in a position to answer...truthfully.

I brought up the eyebrow comment to my wife after it happened. She brushed it off but I told her at that time that if anyone calls me out on it, I would be honest with them.

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Originally Posted by Sue

But people do realize something is up with the changes. The part is whether they know enough to do the math.

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This is true with any change people notice. The fact is though, people tend to go with their own math whether they are right or wrong. That is society today. If your not comfortable telling your friends, then don't. There is nothing wrong with shaving your legs or even plucking your eyebrows even if your not a TG of any kind. What about people who do these things simply because they like it? I started shaving all my body hair after a fitness contest years ago to show more muscle definition and when I did, I liked more that way thus I kept it and now it's a plus since I started dressing again. The only thing I don't shave regularly is my legs but simply because it's a pain. Electrolysis on your facial hair? So what. I have thought about it a few times myself and not for TG reasons but simply because it's a pain in the neck sometimes, not to mention I am blessed with good genes and when clean shaven, I look 10 years younger. I have no desire to ever grow any facial hair. Tried it a few times but ehh, not for me.

This is all up to you of course. If you are planning on going full time at some point then sure, you won't be able to avoid the disclosure at some point but if your not and really don't want to disclose your TG side, then don't. The elephant in the room in any case is always on somebody else, not you, for any changes you make to your image whether it's TG related or not. People are just naturally curious, especially if it relates to something they wouldn't do for themselves thus they don't understand. :)

Dear Sara,

I agree with you that people do notice things eventually. I am heading toward a similar situation, a day of reckoning if you will, as I shape my brows, shave my legs, and grow my hair long. The latter brings back good memories of my skateboarder punk days many years ago :)

I just wanted to say that I hope everything works out well for you and thanks for sharing this with the forum. Please let us know how things progress. Remember, a problem shared is a problem halved. :)

McKenzie

Some folks r just more observant than others, Sara. My ex is VERY observant! When she's coming by, I'm careful not to leave ANYTHING to do with Sherry out!

My daughter who lives with me part ISN'T! She completely clueless and self absorbed. Normally, those r great sources of friction between us. But, it works for Sherry! My daughter has bumped into our elephant a couple of times.

She said, "Where'd this dam thing come from? Well, it's NOT mine and I'm NOT cleaning up after it!" WHEW!

the Elephant in my room is so damm big i do not know how anyone can not notice it ....yet nothing has been said ...not sure what to make of that ...But I do know that if any ones has the balls to confront me my response will be

"Damm what took you so long to ask!"

Joann

I had to think of your friend saying it was basically ok to be a crossdresser (even if not the right terminology) means he is one himself, know someone who is (other than yourself) or an admirer! Obviously I have no way of knowing but it did make me wonder because of his statement. I do think we often give off signals, without us being aware we do so, that those being observant or more aware of certain traits for whatever reason, will pick up. In any case I hope it works out to your favor!

Dana

I know i have an elephant how big it is im not sure ?.I have changed quite a bit, lost a lot of weight form my eyebrows shaved off my goatee i had for about 15 yrs and now i shave my chest all year long (legs winter only bummer ) .The hair has not changed much it's been long for a long time ,but i do have it cut in a bob style girls cut now

I have been growing my hair out for about 4 years, shave my whole body but legs are only part others see, get my eyebrows waxed when I go to the hairdresser. I got my ears pierced 2 years ago and several months ago asked my hairdresser to color my hair. I usually wear diamond studs in my ears but have some small hoops with diamonds that I wear unless working. I get mani's and pedi's with color on the toes and clear on the fingers. I have had several comments about the fingernails, hair color, earrings and long hair but I do not think they have completely figured it out yet, I may be wrong. I think my elephant may be getting a little overweight too but it has not slowed me down yet.

Honestly? People don't like to see elephants. Most people don't like to see things that conflict with their viewpoint or would take extra effort for them to understand. They would much rather invent some other reason why these things are going on, rather than confront you on it. Result? They essentially toss a mental throw rug over it and decide to pretend it doesn't exist. So, for most of the people that come into contact with you, they deny your elephant's existence, and invent other reasons for these modifications - midlife crisis, changes in grooming habits, etc., as the truth is just too much effort for them to conceive. That's my thought, anyway.

Sorry this was so uncharacteristically quick (for me, anyway). I have to go feed my elephant.

:)

Kathi

I have admitted it on a couple of occasions and it was passed over as a joke and too unbelievable to be true.:)

There are two parts to this issue; 1- other peoples perceptions of us as we change and, 2- our own awareness of how much the cumulative change we make in ourselves actually is. Kathi is right about a lot of the people we may encounter, the either don't notice, don't care or come up with a more convenient explanation that fits their world view. We can't control how anyone else sees or perceives us but we do need to have a plan on how to respond if they ask questions. This can be anything from flat out denial to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Everyone will have their own path and constraints there, spouse, kids, job, church, self-image and so on, so there is no single answer for that one. The second issue is one we control. We just have to recognize how much each little modification contributes to the overall image we send. It's so easy to feel like you are moving so very slowly because you only change one thing a week. But your friend or family member who only sees you monthly or once a year will see them all at once. As long as you are making changes and you are not fooling yourself, saying no one will notice, go ahead.

Sara, I guess there is a third problem as well. Like so many around here, you have such a pretty elephant, she needs to be fed, watered, exercised and seen to be happy. And if our elephant isn't happy, we ain't happy, so it increases the chances for this problem to surface. Good luck.

:hugs:

tick tock tick tock....

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Originally Posted by Soriya

This is true with any change people notice. The fact is though, people tend to go with their own math whether they are right or wrong. That is society today. If your not comfortable telling your friends, then don't. There is nothing wrong with shaving your legs or even plucking your eyebrows even if your not a TG of any kind. What about people who do these things simply because they like it? I started shaving all my body hair after a fitness contest years ago to show more muscle definition and when I did, I liked more that way thus I kept it and now it's a plus since I started dressing again. The only thing I don't shave regularly is my legs but simply because it's a pain. Electrolysis on your facial hair? So what. I have thought about it a few times myself and not for TG reasons but simply because it's a pain in the neck sometimes, not to mention I am blessed with good genes and when clean shaven, I look 10 years younger. I have no desire to ever grow any facial hair. Tried it a few times but ehh, not for me.

This is all up to you of course. If you are planning on going full time at some point then sure, you won't be able to avoid the disclosure at some point but if your not and really don't want to disclose your TG side, then don't. The elephant in the room in any case is always on somebody else, not you, for any changes you make to your image whether it's TG related or not. People are just naturally curious, especially if it relates to something they wouldn't do for themselves thus they don't understand. :)

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Outstanding advice Soriya. It serves to remind me of the obvious, that I'm under NO OBLIGATION to disclose ANYTHING if I don't want to. My appearance is my business and what others perceive and think is theirs.

Still, it will be an interesting day when I do get specifically called out. If this is pulled in a "Jeopardy" fashion (phrased in the form of a question), then I do think I'll stick to my plan and let honesty prevail.

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Originally Posted by Dana921

I had to think of your friend saying it was basically ok to be a crossdresser (even if not the right terminology) means he is one himself, know someone who is (other than yourself) or an admirer! Obviously I have no way of knowing but it did make me wonder because of his statement. I do think we often give off signals, without us being aware we do so, that those being observant or more aware of certain traits for whatever reason, will pick up. In any case I hope it works out to your favor!

Dana

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I know that it's hard to peg a person for what they might do when no one else is looking. For example, if it were to come out to one of my friends that I am TG, there'd be no real shock in that. After all, just look at my appearance. Yet with this particular friend, I would be absolutely floored if he were any sort of TG himself, let alone an admirer. He is a guy's guy who can be so very happy laying on a raft in my pool with a beer in hand patting his moderately rotund (and extraordinarily hairy) belly, just as proud as he can be. And I can pretty much guarantee that the only TG he knows is me, even if he is not quite certain yet.

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Originally Posted by Kathi Lake

Honestly? People don't like to see elephants. Most people don't like to see things that conflict with their viewpoint or would take extra effort for them to understand. They would much rather invent some other reason why these things are going on, rather than confront you on it. Result? They essentially toss a mental throw rug over it and decide to pretend it doesn't exist. So, for most of the people that come into contact with you, they deny your elephant's existence, and invent other reasons for these modifications - midlife crisis, changes in grooming habits, etc., as the truth is just too much effort for them to conceive. That's my thought, anyway.

Sorry this was so uncharacteristically quick (for me, anyway). I have to go feed my elephant.

:)

Kathi

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I generally agree with you about elephants. People will automatically default to that which is familiar in order to provide some sort of explanation and then they move on. The question is whether there is a tipping point where more thought is required of them and the TG thing comes into play. I guess my point is that I think I've gotten to that point with at least some people.

BTW, I hope your elephant is happy and well-fed!!! ;)

And both of these comments made me smile....

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Originally Posted by Sarah Charles

Sara, I guess there is a third problem as well. Like so many around here, you have such a pretty elephant, she needs to be fed, watered, exercised and seen to be happy. And if our elephant isn't happy, we ain't happy, so it increases the chances for this problem to surface. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

:hugs:

tick tock tick tock....

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i've changed a lot recently as well. my elephant is starting to sing a bit too . i'm undecided if its a good or bad thing .

I say joke but don't deny. Sure, you're girly. Of course, right. ;) The humor gets people's guards down while simultaneously getting them used to it, without the fear of having it so head-on.

Hi Sara

I really enjoyed these words of yours.

Friendship can be difficult sometimes because the friendship is invested in maintaining the status quo. We are judged by the company we keep and those who wish to be seen in a certain way will associate with others that support this.

They value you and try to keep you the same so that they do not have to change.

It seems like we are always confronted with a choice between two forms of pain.
Living truly and possibly alone or living false but surrounded by others.

I also think this is an illusion and that it is possible to live truly and be surrounded by those that love us but we must first find the strength to become comfortable with
loss. Loss of friends, security and a bought measure of inner peace that is dependant on being what others want of us.

Our lives become like a piece of fabric that is torn in half when we move from being
what others know to what they do not know and to the degree they value the friendship they will resist your changes.

Only those who have gone walked threw the fire of becoming who they were destined to be will understand the importance of allowing you to be who you were meant to be.


"If a person does not keep pace with their companions, perhaps it is because they hear a different drummer. Let them step to the music which they hear, however measured or far away". Henry David Thoreau

Sara the problem with elephants is they take up a lot of space and are hard to contain. They will get noticed eventually and they're hard to explain away. Some will understand having her and some won't. I don't think you can hide her forever.:)

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Originally Posted by Kathi Lake

Honestly? People don't like to see elephants. Most people don't like to see things that conflict with their viewpoint or would take extra effort for them to understand. They would much rather invent some other reason why these things are going on, rather than confront you on it. Result? They essentially toss a mental throw rug over it and decide to pretend it doesn't exist. So, for most of the people that come into contact with you, they deny your elephant's existence, and invent other reasons for these modifications - midlife crisis, changes in grooming habits, etc., as the truth is just too much effort for them to conceive. That's my thought, anyway

Sorry this was so uncharacteristically quick (for me, anyway). I have to go feed my elephant.

:)

Kathi

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I would agree with this whole heartly ...I know for a fact that all of my sisters have felt my bra clasp when they give me a hugg ...they even rub it ...but yet no question ...no comments nothing .....My big brother once called me on it ....then backed off and refused to listen to my response ....he said ..."you know what ....I do not even want to know...you and your wife are the freakiest couple i know ....nevermind'.. and he has not brought it up again since ...


Joann

great story and an awesome tail of coming of age so to speak, slowly approaching the "aha" moment.

At this point however, my elephant is more of a.......sugar ant, no longer threatening extinction but rather, always there because of the sweet things in my life. And what is most exciting, no one knows its there in the first place :)

Yeah, elephants tend to do that sometimes Honey. Especially when they are hungry. ;):)

I understand getting to the point, especially with close friends, of not wanting to lie. If I was confronted directly I might just answer honestly, depending on who the person is. And I don't agree that you have to sustain the inevitable losses. Be prepared to lose people but I don't think it is impossible to keep all of them. So far in my situation everyone has been really great and understanding. We've told the important people in our lives and the others don't matter that much.

I think we all have to make choices on what kind of risks we want to take longterm. I do enough to keep myself sane. I now have pierced ears and fairly narrow eyebrows. I've had electrolysis and keep my body shaved. I occasionally grow my nails long with high gloss clear polish. All together they are enough to make people wonder but so far, no questions.

Good topic Sara!

Hello! I'm new to the board. I've read this thread with great interest, because it's a common problem. However, I've seen no mention here about "Metrosexuals", or "Manscaping". I live in desolation here in Iowa, but even here these are familiar terms. I don't work in an office, and dirt and grease are occupational hazards. I told a couple of the guys I work with that I was thinking about manscaping because of dirt and perspiration gatting matted in my body hair. Result is, it would be a nonissue for most. Sorry if this sounds disgusting, but I lost a great job a couple years ago, and I have a disabled wife to take care of. I gotta do whatever it takes to pay the bills.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

Still, it will be an interesting day when I do get specifically called out. If this is pulled in a "Jeopardy" fashion (phrased in the form of a question), then I do think I'll stick to my plan and let honesty prevail.

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I have a question. :D

What would happen if you told your friend and he was perfectly fine with it even to the point of not being bothered if the two of you continued to hang out while you are dressed. Anytime. And what would happen if all your other friends felt the same way and your wife had a change of heart about others not knowing, after the realization there was no unpleasant social consequences to the knowing.

Do you think you'd move towards living full time?

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Originally Posted by Sally24

And I don't agree that you have to sustain the inevitable losses. Be prepared to lose people but I don't think it is impossible to keep all of them.

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While I don't believe loss is inevitable, your follow up sentence is pure gold!!!

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Originally Posted by Leah Lynn

...I've seen no mention here about "Metrosexuals", or "Manscaping".

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I had to look back because I recently mentioned "metro" but it must have been in another thread. As for "manscaping", I avoid that term like the plague, mostly because of the root word...man.

Back to metro, it's a term that many are familiar with but it seems to have fallen out of favor in the media vernacular compared to several years ago. But the thing is, one can be coined as having metro tendencies (unsure what the "sexual" has to do with "metrosexual") and still be decidedly male in every way, shape & form (perhaps with the exception of the shape of his eyebrows). My problem (if this is really a problem) is that when I present in guy mode with my hair down, it tends to look way too feminine. The picture thread I posted yesterday shows my hair pretty much as I left the house. In guy mode, it tends to get me a lot of stink-eye from others for whom the hair just doesn't compute. So for this reason, and others as well, I think I project something deeper than mere "metro" that tends to really confuse others, including friends.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I have a question. :D

What would happen if you told your friend and he was perfectly fine with it even to the point of not being bothered if the two of you continued to hang out while you are dressed. Anytime. And what would happen if all your other friends felt the same way and your wife had a change of heart about others not knowing, after the realization there was no unpleasant social consequences to the knowing.

Do you think you'd move towards living full time?

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I think it's a chicken and the egg thing.

IF I were to ever go full time, I would hope & pray that my friends would stand by me. I don't picture it the other way around. Part of the reason is that my thoughts of disclosure are not centered around being able to present as female around those who know me only as a guy. And just as I'm not so keen to have my wife accompany me when out and about, I have an almost equally difficult time envisioning going there with any of my friends either as long as I am part-time in presentation.

It has been questioned that if one is a part-timer in presentation, why disclose anything to anyone who has no need to know? In my case, I'm not seeking out disclosure for disclosure's sake. Instead, I'm looking to be honest in the face of a direct inquiry. So far that hasn't happened but the gist of this thread is how it seems I'm dancing on that knife's edge right now.

But Reine, the premise in your question is a most interesting one with a reasonable conclusion to be had on my wife's part. The problem is that living full time would be the equivalent of transition, something my wife has made it crystal-clear that would mean the end of our marriage. Thus the middle path that I find myself on.

Reine, in forsaking the middle path, Sara knows she would also forsake her wife, her family and the life she knows for the unknown. Many on this path are not willing to risk the 'bird in the hand' for a bush - so to speak.

Sara, keep on keeping on, sis! Live your life. Love your life.

Kathi

Yeah, I have to guess that your friend has picked up on the multiple signals by this point and he's close enough to the target. He may not be familiar with the technical nomenclature, but he probably has noticed everything else. And maybe there are other things, like mannerisms that also give some clues.

For example, ever since childhood, I've been told I throw like a girl, sit like a girl and even had a few comments on the way I walk. I have such light body hair that I don't think anyone notices the abscence of hair on my arms and legs...but if they have, no one has commented.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

But Reine, the premise in your question is a most interesting one with a reasonable conclusion to be had on my wife's part. The problem is that living full time would be the equivalent of transition, something my wife has made it crystal-clear that would mean the end of our marriage. Thus the middle path that I find myself on.

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I guess this is what I was getting at. If your wife were on board with all of this, do you think you'd like to transition? Would you be prepared to live life fully as a woman, body parts and all?

I ask this not to put you on the spot, but because I believe that gender identity does run the full spectrum between the gender binaries. There are transwomen who know without a doubt they are women born in the wrong bodies (they want to get rid of their male anatomies), there are men who know without a doubt they are fully men and nothing else (they would never dream of presenting as a woman), but there are also people who feel they are some combination of both along a widely varied spectrum ranging from more male to more female, and their cross-gender expression is not propelled by sexual fetish motives. Unfortunately we don't live in a society that accepts this easily (this is even a difficult concept to understand in the TG community, hence the perceived hierarchy between post-op TSs and others, or the idea that one must be either a CD who does this for "fetish" reasons or a true TS. Even the term "true" TS implies that anyone who does not want SRS is somehow not "true".

So, you're my guinea pig, so to speak, and I'm picking on you with my questions. :p I'd love to know how you feel.

:hugs:

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Originally Posted by ReineD

...So, you're my guinea pig, so to speak, and I'm picking on you with my questions. :p I'd love to know how you feel.

:hugs:

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Alright, I'll play!!! :)

All things being equal, yes, I would transition. I would have done so long ago if I knew then what I know now. But I never look back with any regret because doing so would be the same as wishing my family away, something I would never do.

I therefore find myself on the "middle path", a term that I heard elsewhere for the first time and whether or not my adoption of it fits the intended meaning, this is what it's all about for me.

My earliest memories as a child were all about questioning my gender. Putting it as simple as possible, the prayers to wake up in the morning as a little girl went unanswered. Imagine that.

So life went on and of course I was utterly alone in this whole thing, certainly the only person in this world who felt the way I do. Well that is aside from the freaky portrayals on television. As I got older, I did many of the things society would expect me to do including getting married, building a career and having a family. Around the same time though I began to explore this wonderful world of ours through a feminine perspective but it wasn't until I was in my mid-to-late 30's that I entered what I call my renaissance period which continues to this day.

The middle path has to do with my commitment to all that I have built, perhaps at the expense of what may end up being an insatiable desire to transition. This means that I am not willing to take the chance that all that I have built would somehow survive transition. Maybe I am lucky that I can find fulfillment on both ends of the gender spectrum but at least the pain that I feel in my heart on a daily basis is inflicted only on myself where transition would certainly inflict pain on all who are involved.

Might some on the TS end of things think I'm less authentic by choosing to stay on this particular path? You bet. But I dare to say that IRL, I have no shortage of true friends, both in transition along with fully transitioned, who support my path 100%. So in a nutshell, I do identify as a TS insofar as how I would be defined on a TG spectrum. At the same time, even though many would deny me this privilege, I also identify as female by virtue of what has been in my heart from day one. Yes, that and a few bucks would get me a latte at Starbucks but I think you can see my point.

So here I am on this middle path, surrounded by so many like-minded friends who give me strength to carry on whether that be on those rare semi-easy days or more difficult ones such as today has been. At the same exact time but in a different place on the path (so they cannot see one another), I have my family for whom my personal sacrifice is made. I place my sanity at risk every day of my life, not to mention the vice that squeezes my heart more often than not, all to be surrounded by a love that I am simply unwilling to risk.

Having said all that, I think I'll go and give my little girl a kiss. She's the only one home right now :).

Thanks for your response, Sara. :hugs: It can't be easy.

And you can give your little girl a secret big hug from me. :)

Sara, I can relate to what you are going through 100%. You care about your loved ones and I imagine you care about people in general which seems to be a dying trend nowadays. Best wishes.

You are not alone in this Sara. Believe me, I ain't asking for whom the bell is tolling. . .

You (I) can be pretty damn happy on that middle path! Hang in there!

Debby

So for you middlepathers (MP - oh goody, a new acronym :D), how difficult is it to be in guy mode a bulk of the time? It must be unbearable if you are TSs who choose to remain with the status quo for the benefit of your families.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

So for you middlepathers (MP - oh goody, a new acronym :D), how difficult is it to be in guy mode a bulk of the time? It must be unbearable if you are TSs who choose to remain with the status quo for the benefit of your families.

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Yes it is unbearable and I think that is the reason some talk about contemplating suicide. Some can handle the stress of MP'ing and some can't. Like the saying though, "life is a bit** and then you die".

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Originally Posted by Cherry Lynn

Sara, I can relate to what you are going through 100%...

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Seems there are quite a few of us out there who can relate. The shared experience makes coping so much easier.

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Originally Posted by Debglam

You are not alone in this Sara. Believe me, I ain't asking for whom the bell is tolling. . .

You (I) can be pretty damn happy on that middle path! Hang in there!

Debby

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I hear that bell daily. Sometimes it seems kind of far off in the distance and others it rings rather loudly between my ears. All we can do is remind ourselves that the middle path is a valid place to be and that true happiness can be found there.

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Originally Posted by Marleena

About a week ago I posted about the "middle pathers". There are a bunch of us sitting on the fence for now. Quite a few people didn't want anymore labels though. Anyways, I added the new title to my profile.

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The label debate always bothers me. Human beings use labels for pretty much everything whether we realize it or not, whether we profess to reject labels or not. I am often on the receiving end of labeling at two extremes of the TG spectrum. I'm often accused of transitioning by some, of being CD by others. Technically, neither is correct and without a label to describe where I am on the spectrum, it's nearly impossible to convey both what is in my heart and how I live my life.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

So for you middlepathers (MP - oh goody, a new acronym :D), how difficult is it to be in guy mode a bulk of the time? It must be unbearable if you are TSs who choose to remain with the status quo for the benefit of your families.

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The analogy that was shared with me several years ago by my friend Christine Daniels was that it's like the white noise on a television set that isn't tuned to a channel. Some days that noise is quite loud and others it kind of fades into the background. Regardless, the noise is ever-present.

TG is a concept that is sometimes really hard for some people to get their heads around. You have to figure that 99.whatever% of people don't give a second thought to their gender on a day-to-day basis, yet it's something that I'm reminded of constantly whether I like it or not.

Is it unbearable? There are moments when it seems that way but remember, part of the commitment of being on a middle path has to do with both balance and fulfillment. If living on the guy side of the fence is constantly unbearable, then perhaps transition is the better path. But conversely, whether I consider myself to be TS or female, finding a degree of fulfillment as a male doesn't take anything away from the truth that resides in my heart.

So to bring this full circle (welcoming my elephant back into the picture), while the changes I have made to my appearance might serve me well on the female side of the path, of equal importance (or perhaps even greater importance) is that these changes help me cope. The changes bring my outward appearance that much closer to what is in my heart which often provides some solace on even the darkest of days.

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Originally Posted by Cherry Lynn

Yes it is unbearable and I think that is the reason some talk about contemplating suicide. Some can handle the stress of MP'ing and some can't. Like the saying though, "life is a bit** and then you die".

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The stress that leads some to take their own life often has to do with coping with the entire concept of being trans and how we choose to deal with it. My friend Christine once wrote "transition or die" when what ended up happening to her was the opposite, transition and die. Whenever I think of her, I get very upset because she is a person who, based on things she said to me along with a healthy dose of Monday-morning-quarterbacking, would have been much better off finding her place on the middle path.

This entire TG thing offers a richness of experience that I couldn't imagine trading away for anything because it's all I have ever known. Yet at the same time, it can be a royal pain in the ass that can cause so much heartache.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

Those who know me in these pages understand that I have pushed many limits when it comes to minor body modifications (©VM ;))

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Heh, not so minor when they add up. :-)
\..

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I do tweeze the rest when I go out

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Ouch!

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so there is zero growth or shadow for about a week thereafter. That has to look a bit odd.

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Most won't notice, probably just think you shave often/keep a razor handy in the car/at work.

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Now add the long hair. I'm here to say all bets are off at this time.

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Me Da didn't figure it out even with the long hair. In fact when I told him about teh trans (back when ID'd as a CD), his reply was "so that's why you've been growing your hair."

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Case in point, meeting up with some friends a few weeks ago. I was the last to arrive when one of them greets me with "hey birthday girl". This is one of my best friends and I've shrugged off several similar comments in the recent past. This was simply another one.

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Don't shrug them off. Call her up and mention the comments and ask her why she's been doing them. If she mentions teh trans, you might want to be forthright and apologize for not opening up to her sooner (I'm assuming it's a her)

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I've promised myself of late that if any of my close friends were to call me out on this TG thing, that I would be honest in coming clean.

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Me too.

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the advice is oft given that no one will notice, just stay smooth. This is not true. People do notice these things.

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That's the advice I'd give...because "most" don't notice, although there are always those who DO pick up on such things.

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Originally Posted by Kaitlyn Michele

:hugs:
tick tock tick tock....

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Stop that! It's MY job to do that.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

All things being equal, yes, I would transition. I would have done so long ago if I knew then what I know now.

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You make the VM very happy saying that.

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I therefore find myself on the "middle path", a term that I heard elsewhere for the first time and whether or not my adoption of it fits the intended meaning, this is what it's all about for me.

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It's not an exact match, most self-identified middle pathers over taht the place that originated the term identify as CD's not TS's, though they do tend to have significant femme lives. Non-transitioning transsexual is what you are.

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Might some on the TS end of things think I'm less authentic by choosing to stay on this particular path? You bet.

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That's true, and it's still true applied to me too.

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At the same time, even though many would deny me this privilege, I also identify as female by virtue of what has been in my heart from day one. Yes, that and a few bucks would get me a latte at Starbucks but I think you can see my point.

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I'm a little more careful with the term woman.... I personally feel I haven't earned my womanhood yet.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

So for you middlepathers (MP - oh goody, a new acronym :D), how difficult is it to be in guy mode a bulk of the time? It must be unbearable if you are TSs who choose to remain with the status quo for the benefit of your families.

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The term originated on mHB by the way. :-)

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

The analogy that was shared with me several years ago by my friend Christine Daniels was that it's like the white noise on a television set that isn't tuned to a channel. Some days that noise is quite loud and others it kind of fades into the background. Regardless, the noise is ever-present.

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The analogy I've used is that it's like a background daemon process on a Unix/Linux system. Sometimes it's higher priority, using more of my mental resources, sometimes it's lower priority and mostly sleeping...but it's always running.

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yet it's something that I'm reminded of constantly whether I like it or not.

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I think about gender...a lot.

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So to bring this full circle (welcoming my elephant back into the picture), while the changes I have made to my appearance might serve me well on the female side of the path, of equal importance (or perhaps even greater importance) is that these changes help me cope. The changes bring my outward appearance that much closer to what is in my heart which often provides some solace on even the darkest of days.

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They did that for me too....I...stopped doing some of them though....I may talk about that sometime, but probably not.

Veronica

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

But conversely, whether I consider myself to be TS or female, finding a degree of fulfillment as a male doesn't take anything away from the truth that resides in my heart.

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I'm relieved to read this, for several reasons. First, you and others who feel like you aren't spending half your lives hating it (however you want to define "it"). Second, if it was unbearable being in guy mode, I can't help but think this would shine through, resentments would build even if they were subconscious, and your families would feel the disconnect or the stress.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

So to bring this full circle (welcoming my elephant back into the picture), while the changes I have made to my appearance might serve me well on the female side of the path, of equal importance (or perhaps even greater importance) is that these changes help me cope. The changes bring my outward appearance that much closer to what is in my heart which often provides some solace on even the darkest of days.

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I didn't mention this earlier but my SO also has long hair (mid-back), long finger nails, pierced ears, shaved legs, clipped arm hair, etc. At first I took it that she had decided to maintain this in guy mode in order to make it easier and faster to just go out when she wanted to. It doesn't take her any longer to shower and apply her makeup as it does me. But now I know that she feels better about herself looking as feminine as she can all the time. I'm guessing there are aspects of her male appearance that she just hates. I also think that some people notice "he" is different from other men, maybe they connect the dots, maybe they judge, but then maybe they don't. We'll never know. My SO is out to all the people we know, whom we also know are open to the notion of gender variance.

My SO identifies as dualgender which I suppose is another word for middlepather. Who knows? Some people may feel just as she does and identify as TS.

TS, TG, MP, dual gender, elephant trainer...I guess we can call ourselves anything we like. The definitions are abstractions, but I like to think that we each represent a unique, multi-dimensional place in our universe that might more accurately be described by a series of coordinates.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I guess this is what I was getting at. If your wife were on board with all of this, do you think you'd like to transition? Would you be prepared to live life fully as a woman, body parts and all?

I ask this not to put you on the spot, but because I believe that gender identity does run the full spectrum between the gender binaries. There are transwomen who know without a doubt they are women born in the wrong bodies (they want to get rid of their male anatomies), there are men who know without a doubt they are fully men and nothing else (they would never dream of presenting as a woman), but there are also people who feel they are some combination of both along a widely varied spectrum ranging from more male to more female, and their cross-gender expression is not propelled by sexual fetish motives.

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Reine,

As much as some folks want to be exclusionary, I am absolutely certain that you are correct - that there is a scale of "discomfort" or "intensity" for those of us whose internal gender identity does not match their birth gender. Fetishists aside, I believe that this discomfort is alleviated by some degree of presenting in your internal gender, going all the way to needing to permanently transition to your internal gender. MTF 10-90%, 50-50%, 80-20%, whatever works, up to 100% full transition. Again, it is whatever works to alleviate the individuals gender "discomfort."

Now to answer you question: Complicated for me. I have done a lot of soul searching, looking back at my life (as accurately as one can do that), and think that given how I think I felt as a kid and a teenager, IF I had supportive parents and IF society was more like now and less like it was then, I would probably be a woman now. But. . .

I am in my mid 40's with a male body that has suffered the ravages of a male life all these years. I am madly in love with my wife, and yes, your question is "if she were onboard," but I am extremely satisfied, to be the man in her life and the father to my children. Finally, and I will admit that maybe it is a lifetime of being "conditioned" as a man, there are aspects of my life that I want to experience as a man and not as a woman. Maybe conditioning, maybe 40+ years of male privilege, whatever the case I AM happy and comfortable being a man at times. I still haven't figured out what percentage in what gender I need to be perfectly happy - I'm starting to think that it is a constantly moving target, but a life in two genders seems to be working.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

So for you middlepathers (MP - oh goody, a new acronym :D), how difficult is it to be in guy mode a bulk of the time? It must be unbearable if you are TSs who choose to remain with the status quo for the benefit of your families.

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Going back to a matter of degree, sometimes miserable and sometimes fine.

Bringing things back to the OP:

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

Seems there are quite a few of us out there who can relate. The shared experience makes coping so much easier.

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:)

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

The analogy that was shared with me several years ago by my friend Christine Daniels was that it's like the white noise on a television set that isn't tuned to a channel. Some days that noise is quite loud and others it kind of fades into the background. Regardless, the noise is ever-present.

TG is a concept that is sometimes really hard for some people to get their heads around. You have to figure that 99.whatever% of people don't give a second thought to their gender on a day-to-day basis, yet it's something that I'm reminded of constantly whether I like it or not.

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Thats it!!!! I read something that really resonated with me - Julia Serrano I think.

She was asked after she transitioned if she sometimes went into the wrong restroom by mistake. Her reply was that she never in her life went up to those restroom doors without consciously considering her gender and which was the "correct" door for her to enter. That hit real close to home!

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

This entire TG thing offers a richness of experience that I couldn't imagine trading away for anything because it's all I have ever known. Yet at the same time, it can be a royal pain in the ass that can cause so much heartache.

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I think this is true. I think that if more people in this world were true to themselves, whatever that may be, it would be a better world.

The elephant in my room is also getting pretty loud, wrestless, cranky and is starting to hit the walls. Somedays its driving me nuts more than others. I know how you feel, somedays I want to scream!!!
I will probably be taking the middle path too over the next few years. I hope if my wife can handle it and I don't drive her insane or take any more years off her life in the process.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit

Don't shrug them off. Call her up and mention the comments and ask her why she's been doing them. If she mentions teh trans, you might want to be forthright and apologize for not opening up to her sooner (I'm assuming it's a her)

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Wrong, my sage friend!!! This was from a guy, one of my best friends. He is one of the most witty people I know and no one is immune from his barbs. My hair just gives him fodder.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit

It's not an exact match, most self-identified middle pathers over taht the place that originated the term identify as CD's not TS's, though they do tend to have significant femme lives. Non-transitioning transsexual is what you are.

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Right on, and I don't want anyone to think that I'm making some sort of attempt to co-op the term for exclusive use of the non-transitioning transsexuals of the world. I can think of one person in particular (and I think you know who she is) who is so very much like me with the exception that all things being equal, she would NOT transition. Yet she is on a middle path nonetheless in that her feminine presence in the world is in fact significant, as you put it. I think that is where the distinction is. One who is a closet-dweller cannot be on a middle path because they have not taken the important steps into this wonderful world of ours to explore what it is to be a social feminine creature. I would think the other caveat would be that there has to be some semblance of a balance to strike between two modes of existence, both female and male, which might intersect slightly but not completely by any stretch of the imagination.

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Originally Posted by VeronicaMoonlit

I'm a little more careful with the term woman.... I personally feel I haven't earned my womanhood yet.

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I'm right there with you Veronica. Don't get me wrong, I don't run around in my travels professing to be a woman. I'm read as being TG and if a conversation ensues and it comes up, I would define myself further within the TG spectrum. Where "woman" comes into play in my world is when I describe what is in my heart. There's not a TS hanging out in there, she is 100% female.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I'm relieved to read this, for several reasons. First, you and others who feel like you aren't spending half your lives hating it (however you want to define "it"). Second, if it was unbearable being in guy mode, I can't help but think this would shine through, resentments would build even if they were subconscious, and your families would feel the disconnect or the stress.

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There are times when things feel unbearable, or when the stress of being trans does in fact boil over to a point where I do disconnect or the family senses the stress. That is just something which comes with the territory of being married to someone which issues such as these. My job is to do the absolute best I can in managing these issues to minimize that effect.

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Originally Posted by ReineD

I didn't mention this earlier but my SO also has long hair (mid-back), long finger nails, pierced ears, shaved legs, clipped arm hair, etc. At first I took it that she had decided to maintain this in guy mode in order to make it easier and faster to just go out when she wanted to. It doesn't take her any longer to shower and apply her makeup as it does me. But now I know that she feels better about herself looking as feminine as she can all the time. I'm guessing there are aspects of her male appearance that she just hates. I also think that some people notice "he" is different from other men, maybe they connect the dots, maybe they judge, but then maybe they don't. We'll never know. My SO is out to all the people we know, whom we also know are open to the notion of gender variance.

My SO identifies as dualgender which I suppose is another word for middlepather. Who knows? Some people may feel just as she does and identify as TS.

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You are in a unique place in that you are out and open to the others in your life. I have said before that despite my having such a rich circle of friends and amazing experiences in my female existence, I would still be considered "in the closet" when it comes to others in my everyday life knowing, thus the existence of my very own elephant!!!

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Originally Posted by Debglam

Reine,

As much as some folks want to be exclusionary, I am absolutely certain that you are correct - that there is a scale of "discomfort" or "intensity" for those of us whose internal gender identity does not match their birth gender. Fetishists aside, I believe that this discomfort is alleviated by some degree of presenting in your internal gender, going all the way to needing to permanently transition to your internal gender. MTF 10-90%, 50-50%, 80-20%, whatever works, up to 100% full transition. Again, it is whatever works to alleviate the individuals gender "discomfort."

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Very well said Debby.

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Originally Posted by Debglam

I am in my mid 40's with a male body that has suffered the ravages of a male life all these years. I am madly in love with my wife, and yes, your question is "if she were onboard," but I am extremely satisfied, to be the man in her life and the father to my children. Finally, and I will admit that maybe it is a lifetime of being "conditioned" as a man, there are aspects of my life that I want to experience as a man and not as a woman. Maybe conditioning, maybe 40+ years of male privilege, whatever the case I AM happy and comfortable being a man at times. I still haven't figured out what percentage in what gender I need to be perfectly happy - I'm starting to think that it is a constantly moving target, but a life in two genders seems to be working.

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I get a sense that your place on the middle path is a little less perilous than mine. I am happy with what I have built but all things being equal, there is nothing in my future that I would prefer to experience as a guy over doing so as a woman. Heck, I even have a really hard time referring to myself as a....well, you know. I'm hypersensitive to songs that refer to reveling in masculinity or even lyrical references to being male as this reminds me of a normal that I am not privy to. I have written before that I witness that "normal" male in my circle of friends and have moments of profound envy for these guys in that (I assume) they are part of the 99.whatever% of people who give their gender no second thought. I am uncomfortable being male, yet I have gotten this far doing it so I must have done something right. Still, there are moments when I wish I could be something that is impossible for me to be, even if only for those who love me the most.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

I can think of one person in particular (and I think you know who she is) who is so very much like me with the exception that all things being equal, she would NOT transition. Yet she is on a middle path nonetheless in that her feminine presence in the world is in fact significant, as you put it. I think that is where the distinction is.

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My gosh, you know people like that?!

:)

Kathi

All good points everyone has made. In my case the elephant has ran me over.:eek:

Everyone has different decisions and compromises to make, in my case it more more about energy.

I was spending more mental and emotional energy avoiding (though not denying) it, until it got to the point where it will actually be easier to transition.
The path of least resistance.

Would I have done it if my wife hadn't left me?
Well I probably would have tried to keep to the 'middle path' as long as possible, but I would not have been able to stop it (as she wanted in the end, though she initially supported me).
No ideas how long I might have managed it though. Or what it might have cost me. To take one thing, I suspect I was well on my way to alcoholism during that time.

You will do a lot for those you love and will do nearly anything you can to avoid hurting them.

This is so difficult and my heart goes out to all those who are in this situation.

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Originally Posted by Sara Jessica

You are in a unique place in that you are out and open to the others in your life. I have said before that despite my having such a rich circle of friends and amazing experiences in my female existence, I would still be considered "in the closet" when it comes to others in my everyday life knowing, thus the existence of my very own elephant!!!

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Sorry, I didn't word that right. I said, "My SO is out to all the people we know, whom we also know are open to the notion of gender variance", meaning that our friends who are open to my SO's CDing, know about it (mostly people in the LGBT community). We haven't told people whom we believe would be intolerant, such as coworkers, family members, and some friends, and my SO doesn't go out dressed in our small town. Luckily the next town over is only 15-20 minutes away.

I've enjoyed re-reading most of this thread this morning over coffee. What a wonderful conversation and exchange of feelings and ideas.

But now for a new wrinkle.

This "elephant" theory has a lot to do with pushing the envelope and that intersection of the female & male parts of our lives. Well a few weeks ago I went out on a weekday. It was a long and wonderful day and I did not return home until well after midnight, having to go to work the next morning. I took off my makeup and went to sleep. The next morning I did my usual routine including washing my face and skincare. I looked in the mirror and noticed that my eyes looked different, they looked better, really cool actually. But at that moment I couldn't really place why this was. I knew I didn't wear eyeliner the day before so it wasn't like I had that raccoon-eye thing going on. I just left well enough alone and went to work.

At the end of the day, this woman comes into my office and takes a seat. We were talking for all of 30 seconds when she says...

You're wearing mascara, aren't you???

To which I calmly replied, "no, I'm not".

The exchange over the next minute (which felt like an hour) was along the lines of "yes you are" / "no I'm not, I'm tired but I'm NOT wearing mascara" / "don't you be turning gay on me" / "please" etc etc etc.

Whether the conversation ended to her satisfaction that her perception was somehow incorrect, I cannot say to this day. Looking back, I wonder if others noticed something and put her up to this "inspection". Her and I go back about 8 years or so. I hired her and we're actually friends outside of work, her family and mine. She has no filter either so she may have simply done this on her own. Time will tell but I was not remotely tempted to use this as a means to out myself at work. Best to let my elephant continue her existence.

And by the way, as I was leaving work I looked into my rearview mirror and said to myself "holy s#*t, you ARE wearing mascara" as I pulled on my lashes and had black all over my fingers.

Moral of the story, be very careful with that makeup remover, lest your elephant might become that much more noticeable.

Sara, it's just another example of how comfortable we get as we tip toe down this trail. Those itty bitty steps we take don't seem like much at the time, but they all add up and over enough time they look like giant elephant steps to someone who hasn't been with us the whole trip. Be careful, have a good explanation or at least be ready to take ownership.

Sara you are where I'm headed. I've started to let my hair grow ten month ago, I'm wearing more jewelry, the hair on my hand have been gone for two years. I've been epilating my arms slowly over time now most of the hair is gone. I'm plucking my eyebrows more and more. I'm thinning my leg hair and going to go fully hairless soon. I'm trying to push the gender line as much as possible. I keep wondering how far I can go before people add two plus two, and what I would do if someone asked me about it. My goal is to come out in the future, how far in the future I don't know. Janelle

Hi Sara.
I am in much the same situation as you, wanting to transition but not wantign to lose my wife. I have gone through some questioning and experimenting (took hormones for a little while) and envelope pushing. I realized I was pushing too far and had to step back when I was in the restroom at work fixing my hair (male mode) when a fellow walks in the restroom, sees me and walks out thinking it's the ladies room. He looked at the sign on the door, looked at me and walked away shaking his head. I realized than that I had to make some decisions. That was when I chose my wife over transition and backed off on my girl time a bit.

My wife and I have an agreement. I can dress pretty much whenever I want but no hormones, surgery, or coming out to people without consulting her first. Also, no dressing in the SCA, our hobby. (We had an unintentional outing that went poorly) These days I find myself dealing with the ever increasing feelings of wanting to transition, but not wanting to lose my wife. (Transition is a deal breaker, she will leave) I have to balance feminising my body as much as I can while still being male enough for her. Some days it's really really depressing. Others it's not so bad. My hair is long, legs are shaved, eyebrows tweezed. I am a bit fortunate though in that among my friends I am the weirdo even without the trans issues. To be honest, my friends are all a bit weird to begin with.

I hope you can find a comfortable middle path, Sara. (I'm still looking for mine) Thanks for sharing your experiences, they help other people, including me, a lot.

Hi Sara,

Thanks for sharing this. You are right on the mark, people notice everything. It is really a question of how accepting they are.

I am a performer and work around theater enough to pick up on the details. Every thing adds up to the big picture, actors make subtle changes to convey the character.

I am really impressed with how far some of you girls have taken things.

BTW the Elephant singing show tunes is darling, thanks for that.

I can still pull off male because I have not gotten into the MBM's as of yet. I think about them..and would like to be very fem, actually be a woman. But I was born male. There is still a use for me being male and presenting as male I remain, there is a reason I am like this/trans gendered.

As the Artist, I tell people what to think. Me, I color their perceptions. My point is you can create what you like. The masses, you can not go by them.....

But I know you are also describing your relationships with friends and co workers. Those who know you over a span of time.

This, I go through with family, and some co workers, they figure I am gay...I do like men, but I am more of a woman, how they like men, usually I am alone.

But it is left at gay, but only to some, with others they do not see a thing, I am just another dude.
The dignity I carry myself with is what people that know me for a length of time respond to. I am a kind and respectful person. It does not hurt that I am a professional artist, they just write me right off there...say OK he's one of those artists....
So the years of starvation and those horrid part time jobs pay off LOL!!
♥♥♥
Noemi