"Im so tired of needing to always be a man"

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

I have very little experience with cross-dressing so perhaps I'm completely wrong, but I don't consider them to be frustrated transsexuals. I consider them to be men who enjoy cross-dressing because they feel some need to express some kind of 'femininity' and they don't know how to do it any other way.

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Yep, that's where you are going wrong all right.

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All I'm trying to say is maybe they should consider the crazy idea of trying to find ways to work their real personality into their real lives. I am not saying they should come out as TS or CD or anything too freaky, just be three dimensional men. Clearly this concept is too progressive for this forum but I pity anyone who is so ruled by fear that they can't even admit to enjoying a sappy movie or a pedicure with their daughter.

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I'm saying that as a non-CD who was fine being identified as a gay man until you transitioned, that you just don't have a whole bunch of understanding of what many CDs here go through. Want to express some femininity? Fine - people will assume you are gay because this is the only template of gender variance most heteronormative folks have. This is fine if you are attempting to live as a gay man (I know this didn't work for you), but for a suburban dude in normalsville, this is going to cause problems.

And yes, you should feel sympathy for people who are so ruled by fear. It's a horrible feeling - one you obviously don't understand well. You can keep your pity though. Nobody here wants it.

I'm not tired of the things I do as a man I was brought with the attitude of there's no such word as can't, so I would have been a trier but my sister is also a trier . I have probably achieved more as a man, but then we have a spanner in the works some how in my brain a streak of femininity crept in maybe even from birth and it's very hard if not impossible to ignore because it's always there it gives me something a man's life can never give.

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. . . couldn't you let yourself be a little flappable . . .

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In a way, JessM, that's like asking if I couldn't just not dress. Decades of social and peer conditioning, training in the formative years which led to permanent brain and behavior wiring, blah-blah-blah. It could also be part of the male DNA that I just can't explain. In any event, the package has helped helped me be very successful in the drab universe and I'm not looking to alter that. I've simply learned to be OK with dressing, use it in a way that works for me, and not beat myself up for doing it.

On a related note, I think my wife and I spent a good 10-12 years trying to figure it all out. Pepper in some counseling (total waste of time) and we finally decided that we're both good with it, and not to try and read too much into it. Being in this forum has helped to fill in some of the blanks.

Responses are all over the place, as Laura predicted in the first reply (Post #2), because we are different. There are men who like being men and accept the role but just like to dress up (the CD) , there are men who don't like being men (the TG -they have hijacked the term "transgender" for themselves), and there are those who aren't men but are stuck with male bodies and the expectations that come with a penis (the TS).
For those who don't like the expectations your SO has, did you let her know that from the beginning?
For every expectation for being male there is an expectation for being female. The guy that is expected to fix the car seems to be totally unable to operate a needle and thread to sew on a button. At work , there was a department meeting - about 8 men and one woman - guess who was asked to make coffee.
Women complaining about male privilige and men complaining about male responsibility are two sides of the same coin.

Hi JessM,

Very interesting question and one I have not given any thought to simply because I cannot explain why I do what I do. Adhering to stereotypical roles . . . I do that not because it is expected but because I truly enjoy doing them. For example, I love being a solider is that the realm of men in Canada . . . nope as there are plenty of female combat soldiers. They like me do it because they enjoy it. I fix cars, do renovations, clear brush, play sports but then again so do women. I also enjoy cooking and absolutely love to vacuum. I don't do these things en femme (okay sometimes) I do them because I love to do them.

So what does that leave . . . the dressing I guess. Yes, I love the feel of women's clothing on my body and I love the fact that I can now go out in public dressed as such and I don't care. Do I do it so I can stop feeling like a man . . . nope. One look at me will only confirm that I am a guy and no amount of clothing or make-up is going to change that.

When I get together with my friends who know about Isha whether I am en femme or en boy, I talk about the same things as my likes, dislikes and vices have not changed . . . so still very much a guy. However, the one thing I do know that I enjoy "en femme" which I cannot "en boy" is a calming effect I get when I am with my GG friends. Our conversations are the same as when I am "en boy" but for some reason their acceptance of me is akin to the same acceptance I feel when I with my guy friends "en boy". May seem silly, but I feel a greater affinity to my GG friends when I am Isha then when I am "en boy"

So that is the one thing that I find differs. Other than that . . . same old, same old whether I am in skirt and heels or a suit and tie.

Hugs

Isha

Nicole I can mend a car ( I'm quite good at breaking them!), but when some clothes came through too big I taught myself to use a sewing machine, shortened the hem took the sides in, but gave the game away, I left the thread in, not a colour the wife had been using.

In my vunderstanding, this post askes if 'escape from the responsibilities of being a man is a motivator for CDing. I agree with Nicole that there are perhaps as many motivators for CDing as there are CDrs. I also submit that this question is less relevant to TG or TS people, or those who cd as a fetish or for the sheer fun of dressing up. It seems that if an individual sees CDing as a way to escape perceived 'male' responsibility they are fixing the wrong problem with the wrong solution.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

And yes, you should feel sympathy for people who are so ruled by fear. It's a horrible feeling - one you obviously don't understand well. .

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For the last time, I never suggested that dudes should ACT feminine. I assure you there are big manly Texans who are doing everything I'm suggesting and nobody thinks they're gay or CD's.

I guess on this forum, being anything less than cartoonishly macho is tantamount to being gay. I think I'm beginning to understand why women think it's so awful to be married to a CD. Here's a hint, it ain't the cross-dressing that's the problem.

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I had a rash of PM's after this post, all supportive except for one. Since I detest writing in PM's because I'd rather not let people hide their opinions from the board, I'm adding some thoughts here.

I was speaking to the guys that feel like they have to be macho jerks lest someone will "know". I was speaking to the dudes that feel like they have to be dressed up before they can listen to Britney or watch a chick flick, or just be a sweetie to someone. The guys that have nearly split personalities who feel like they MUST pretend to like sports or love working on cars.

I'm just saying if you don't like working on cars, then stop doing it. If you don't like hunting, then stop doing it. I'm just trying to get across that there are plenty of manly men as well as not so manly men who don't hunt and fish, and I know really tough looking dudes that would think nothing of getting a mani/pedi with their wives or daughters. I don't know too many guys that would get in their face about it either. I am NOT saying dudes should flame out and be fabulous, I'm just saying they can relax a little and start enjoying their lives a bit WITHOUT coming out as anything other than an interesting dude. Not a feminine dude, just a regular guy who is okay with taking his car to the shop, or letting a buddy work on his motorcycle. Be manly in the ways that you enjoy. Just be real.

Cross-dress in private if you want, nobody has to know what you do behind closed doors. I'm not suggesting that being yourself will "cure" you of cross-dressing, I'm just saying that you might be happier if you stop volunteering to do things you hate doing.

I met a fireman once who had beautiful nails. Not girly, just well kept, and believe me this dude was ALL man. ;-)

The answer is learning to be confident in your masculinity. Once you realize you have nothing to prove, you'll stop trying so hard to prove something.

Misty, I am unsurprised that mine was the only unsupportive email you received. My opinion is in the minority here, and always has been. This won't change. I do feel it is pretty unfair of you to accuse me of hiding behind a PM - I have been pretty directly critical of you in this thread because I think you are wrong, and that you are totally missing the point.

And if you were in front of me, and said 'I pity these guys' which is what you said here, I'd tell you 'how dare you condescend to these people!'

It is unfair of you to take out your own insecurities on others. These men have real problems that aren't going to be solved by listening to Beyoncé's latest.

Edit: what I find so interesting, hon, is why you are so passionate about arguing over a topic you ADMIT you don't understand. Why is that?

Now someone could say of me that I'm trans and that my views are skewed. That's no doubt true - but I lived as on overcompensating closeted CD off and on for 40 years of my life, and I am telling you flat out that you simply have no idea what you are talking about here, and are attempting to cover that with your defense mechanisms of snark and hot air. Why is that?

I hope this can stay civil; I think we all only want everyone to have as easy a life as possible.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Neither woman I married could handle any display of emotion on my part . My current wife completely freaked if I displayed uncertainty. I had to be decisive and confident all the time. At jobs I've had - are you kidding me? I can't imagine crying at work - my management wouldn't have tolerated it.

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Paula, why did you marry two women who couldn't handle you being at all sensitive or emotional? That's a serious question -- did you believe at the time that you could go through the rest of your life being the strong, stoic one? Or did you think they would change?

Also, about the workplace, I should say that women aren't allowed to cry there either. Not anywhere I've ever worked, anyway.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

I lived as on overcompensating closeted CD off and on for 40 years of my life,

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Paula, isn't it fair to say that you only thought you were a CDer? perhaps even hoped you were a CDer! but in reality you were TS... right? I mean, CDers don't just suddenly become TSes, you either are or you are not. That being said can you see that your experience would be different than your average CDer who is OK with being a guy?

Anyway I think Misty makes some good points.

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Originally Posted by JessM.

Paula, why did you marry two women who couldn't handle you being at all sensitive or emotional? That's a serious question -- did you believe at the time that you could go through the rest of your life being the strong, stoic one? Or did you think they would change?

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I didn't realize that's what I was getting myself into - my second wife was VERY independent. When we met. When we moved in together, for example, she wanted to split the rent and bills 50/50, even though I made about 3x her income. She got pissed off at me for trying to setup the VCR, instead of letting her do it. She had her own job and career path. I always encouraged her to educate herself and encouraged her to pursue a career and her dreams. She seemed so strong when I met her. She changed, or maybe I overlooked something fundamental, or maybe I somehow undermined her, in the most loving, but enabling way.

I don't have an answer to that question, and I know I need to address it. I'm trying to fit in some codependence support groups, or al-anon (both deal with this issue extensively), but my support group schedule is really full right now. So that may have to wait a little bit - I seem to be at my limit of things I can work on about myself currently. I am very aware and concerned about this however, and I fully intend to come to an understanding of it, such as I can. I'd really like to do this sooner, rather than later.

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Also, about the workplace, I should say that women aren't allowed to cry there either. Not anywhere I've ever worked, anyway.

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No, they are not allowed to do that either. But while a woman who cries at work will be seen as "weak", a man who cries will be seen as having a complete meltdown. The corporate world is pretty cruel to everyone, and neglect of your family and social life are actively encouraged in many corporations. We are all supposed to be little emotionless drones, doing our job, while the sociopaths who frequently rule us rage on.

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

Paula, isn't it fair to say that you only thought you were a CDer? perhaps even hoped you were a CDer! but in reality you were TS... right? I mean, CDers don't just suddenly become TSes, you either are or you are not.

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1. I believe I acknowledged this.
2. every TS I know who CDed at an early age wanted to be "just a cross dresser." Do you think that some number of the folks on this forum are any different? You want to know how you can tell the "future" TS girls apart from the "just a CDer?" You can't. (Believe me, plenty of folks on the TS forum here flatly told me that I wasn't a TS, but a CD. Either they were wrong, or the system is broken, and I'm insane. Take your pick.) Why then would my experience be irrelevant?

More to the point, what part of being terrified of discovery, and hiding something fundamental about myself seems fundamentally different between a CDing TS and a CDer? The gay guys in my LGBT AA group often have very similar experiences of hiding and shame. I'm not a gay man, but I totally understand how they feel. Hiding something fundamental about how you are is a horrible and negating experience.

I find it fascinating that women who tell others, before they start transition, "be prepared to lose everything" (which is sound advice!), feel free to tell fearful gender variant individuals who are at some unknown place on the spectrum "oh you go girl! Dip your toes in the water! It's all GOOD!"

What is up with that? Were you never afraid?

edit: one last note - it isn't so much that I think BT's suggestions are unhelpful, particularly coming from someone who has no firsthand experience with the matter. Hey, for some people, what she suggests might work. It was the condescension implied in the word "pity" that really sets me off. NO ONE on this forum is any less, nor is there suffering any less real than ANY TS.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

every TS I know who CDed at an early age wanted to be "just a cross dresser." Do you think that some number of the folks on this forum are any different? You want to know how you can tell the "future" TS girls apart from the "just a CDer?" You can't. (Believe me, plenty of folks on the TS forum here flatly told me that I wasn't a TS, but a CD. Either they were wrong, or the system is broken, and I'm insane. Take your pick.) Why then would my experience be irrelevant?

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Not every one. I crossdressed at an early age...around 4 or so....and I always knew I was a girl, even before I knew there was such a word as transsexual. Did I want to be a crossdresser? No! I wanted to be a girl. When asked why I crossdressed my response was..."it is the only way I can find to make me look like a girl".

How do you tell a ts girl apart from "just a cd"? You cannot, but many times they know. (I did)

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Originally Posted by almostalady

How do you tell a ts girl apart? You cannot, but many times they know.

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Thanks Angela, you are right, and I stand corrected. I should have said that I know many trans women, like me, who didn't have the courage to admit what they knew, or couldn't figure it out for themselves, who wanted to be "just a cross dresser." Once you are married and have a couple of kids, the impetus to stay in denial is quite powerful, and the fears about consequences are quite real.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

The corporate world is pretty cruel to everyone, and neglect of your family and social life are actively encouraged in many corporations.

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This is the worst of male behavior and male privilege. To me, the way corporations treat employees is the same thing as men being jerks. Men and women who don't want to go along with the corporate game are viewed as sissies and face problems of their own in keeping a job or getting a promotion. And it is caused by men, since men run the corporate world.

Someone (a GG) once told me that to get to the top, you have to be a man, preferably white, who thinks and acts like a white man. This means gender variants who don't act like men are screwed. Women are screwed. Non-whites are screwed. Even white men who don't act white get screwed. Many other cultures aren't so workaholic like the white man.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

NO ONE on this forum is any less, nor is there suffering any less real than ANY TS.

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That's right. CD and TS and other gender variants all have real issues, and real suffering. The issues may be fundamentally different, while some overlap - we all try to hide a fundamental part of ourselves from others. But we all suffer.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

She seemed so strong when I met her. She changed, or maybe I overlooked something fundamental, or maybe I somehow undermined her, in the most loving, but enabling way.

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Sounds like you're saying it's possible that you brought gender rigidity to the marriage, and boxed both of you in so that she had to be the weak one and you had to be the strong one. I think what BadTranny and I are talking about is trying to encourage people to do as much as they can to break down those rigid boxes, even without coming out of any kind of closet.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

I find it fascinating that women who tell others... "be prepared to lose everything" (which is sound advice!), feel free to tell fearful gender variant individuals who are at some unknown place on the spectrum "oh you go girl! Dip your toes in the water! It's all GOOD!"

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I'm a fan of more cultural change, of the sort that led to women being able to wear pants and men being able to have long hair. I encourage everyone to try to get past the rigid boxes. For most men, that won't mean wearing lipstick or stockings. But it might mean letting yourself cry in front of your wife; taking your car to a mechanic; staying home with the children while your wife brings in the salary; or dancing however you want to dance, at least in the privacy of your own home.

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Originally Posted by JessM.

Sounds like you're saying it's possible that you brought gender rigidity to the marriage, and boxed both of you in so that she had to be the weak one and you had to be the strong one.

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No, I don't think that's the entire story. My wife's father was a VERY weak man. She hated him - a lot. In her mind, men who showed weakness weren't men at all. Her step-dad, who she idolized was a hard driving, man's man. So you combine that with my fortress like walls of gender bullshit, and yeah, you wind up with where we ended up as soon as the idea of "yep, I'm a girl" comes up. It wasn't obvious to me at the time. I knew, but denied my own issues. I never knew about her relationship with her father (she didn't even speak to him when we married - I could relate, I didn't speak to my dad either), until years later, when I watched her interact with him.

Having never watched such a dynamic play out, I don't think there's any way I could've predicted all this, at least at the outset.

I am going to be mindful of my habit of trying to rescue people though. It is a real character failing on my part when I apply it to relationships.

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I think what BadTranny and I are talking about is trying to encourage people to do as much as they can to break down those rigid boxes, even without coming out of any kind of closet.

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I agree with this, and like the way you said it - there was no implicit condescension in what you said. The rigid boxes our society places us in makes the problems of gender variant individuals MUCH worse. Unfortunately, I don't think that breaking down the boxes will fix all this stuff. It will just let us deal with it openly, honestly, and humanely.



I'm a fan of more cultural change, of the sort that led to women being able to wear pants and men being able to have long hair. I encourage everyone to try to get past the rigid boxes. For most men, that won't mean wearing lipstick or stockings. But it might mean letting yourself cry in front of your wife; taking your car to a mechanic; staying home with the children while your wife brings in the salary; or dancing however you want to dance, at least in the privacy of your own home.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Edit: what I find so interesting, hon, is why you are so passionate about arguing over a topic you ADMIT you don't understand. Why is that?

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Passionate?

I wouldn't say I cared that much, I just don't like to be misunderstood or worse, mis-characterized. My own insecurities? That makes me LOL.

I admit that my cross-dressing experience was rather limited but I WAS in the closet for most of my life so far because I thought I was gay. I was a bonafide park cruising closet queen who's blown a dude in an adult book store or two. During the light of day, I was a full on pretender who would work out a lot, talk about guns a lot and even pushed a couple of weaker guys around to prove my manhood. I was raised in a little crap hole town in way Southern Louisiana and spent my early adult life in Bakersfield CA, so I know a little bit about rigid gender roles and being on the down low among fearsome redneck assholes.

Sure I wasn't cross-dressing, but I was a self hating closet queer who was doing things that were a LOT more dangerous than CD'ing with my wife. You think I don't know about over compensation? I did all kinds of things that I didn't want to do just so nobody would think I was a fag. I didn't drink a drop of alcohol throughout my twenties because I was afraid I would get drunk and forget to watch my posture, or my body language, or whatever. I guess I was afraid I would be a big drunk queen for some reason so I stayed sober until I was almost 30 and began to get a little more comfortable with myself, but it wasn't until I was 37 or so that I started coming out. Slowly.

I'm talking to people that identify as men, yet are not secure in their own masculinity. I'm telling them to do the work and become secure in who they are and expand the definition of what a "real" man is because their current line of thinking is no way to live.

Anyhoo, I'm beginning to grow weary of this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

I'm just saying if you don't like working on cars, then stop doing it. If you don't like hunting, then stop doing it. I'm just trying to get across that there are plenty of manly men as well as not so manly men who don't hunt and fish, and I know really tough looking dudes that would think nothing of getting a mani/pedi with their wives or daughters. I don't know too many guys that would get in their face about it either. I am NOT saying dudes should flame out and be fabulous, I'm just saying they can relax a little and start enjoying their lives a bit WITHOUT coming out as anything other than an interesting dude. Not a feminine dude, just a regular guy who is okay with taking his car to the shop, or letting a buddy work on his motorcycle. Be manly in the ways that you enjoy. Just be real.

Cross-dress in private if you want, nobody has to know what you do behind closed doors. I'm not suggesting that being yourself will "cure" you of cross-dressing, I'm just saying that you might be happier if you stop volunteering to do things you hate doing.

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

The answer is learning to be confident in your masculinity. Once you realize you have nothing to prove, you'll stop trying so hard to prove something.

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Misty, thank you for posting this!

I've observed over the years CDers who prefer to split their personalities and likes and dislikes into activities that only the "reluctant he" or the "suppressed she" can do. They do not allow themselves to do certain things they enjoy in guy mode, and they do things in guy mode that they hate. Even my SO for years felt that as a guy he shouldn't collect art and take ballroom dance lessons because ... I don't know ... maybe some people would guess who s/he was inside? It's all better now, my SO has fully integrated herself and is all that much happier for it. :)

The members who split themselves up do seem to have pretty strict, stereotypical gender role boxes. I do think they would benefit by allowing their preferences to come to the surface in guy mode, even if they chose to keep the CDing private from most people in their lives.

Live and learn.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Why then would my experience be irrelevant?

I find it fascinating that women who tell others, before they start transition, "be prepared to lose everything" (which is sound advice!), feel free to tell fearful gender variant individuals who are at some unknown place on the spectrum "oh you go girl! Dip your toes in the water! It's all GOOD!"

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Not only do you have a chip on your shoulder you seem to like to put words in peoples mouths.

I never said your experience was irrelevant, just different. You are TS are you not? Then your experience is different from your average heterosexual, CDer.

I'm not telling anyone "you go girl" or "its all good" nor is Misty. NO ONE is saying you have to shout "I'm a CDer" from the roof tops all she is saying, and I agree, is that its possible to be a regular joe without putting on airs of machismo BS.

What "water" is it that you imagine I or Misty or any other TS posting here is suggesting someone dip their toe in??

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

I never said your experience was irrelevant, just different. You are TS are you not? Then your experience is different from your average heterosexual, CDer.

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I disagree that it is fundamentally different, except in degree. Most of these people are experiencing minor degrees of GD, and it is manifesting itself in terms of cross dressing. The behavior between someone like me, and someone like them is indistinguishable except after the fact. I'd like to know why you think it is fundamentally different, other than that would be SUPER convenient and WAY less scary for many on this forum. I'm sorry, but that just isn't how it seems to me. People here have good reasons to be afraid.

As for a chip on my shoulder, sure. Misty waltzes in here, spouts off on something she admittedly doesn't know anything about, and then talks about "pity" for the folks who overcompensate. I think that is massively condescending, and I won't stand for that type of treatment of other members.

Gee, I know plenty of TS girls who massively overcompensated because GD made them scared and it also frequently made them angry miserable people to be around. Doesn't that sound a whole lot like a CDer who overcompensates and is angry and miserable to be around when they don't CD for a while? It differs in degree, but the behaviors seem a whole lot alike to me.

I know several people on this forum who've tried, either deliberately or inadvertently, to incorporate feminine behaviors into their lives. About the best you can really get away with is to stop massively overcompensating. Some of the ones I know have suffered for their behavior.

My objection is the overall lack of sympathy, the condescending snark, and general blathering about a topic she knows nothing about. If she'd cut the "pity" crap, I wouldn't have said a word, except perhaps to disagree with her.

I'm sure that some of us would like to shead all the male responsibilities in our relationships. However, in a good marriage each partner takes on the tasks they can handle best. So I do all the home repairs and contract out what I don't know how to do. I work on all the cars and love it when I get one of the old ones purring. I love remodeling parts of the house to the point that my wife does not want me to start any more projects. I love sharing my opinion with her when we watch "Say Yes to the Dresss" or "Beverly Hills Wives." She won't see me dressed and never will. Her wishes. She hates housekeeping, doing the laundry or loading the dishwasher. I don't mind it at all. She brings in the bigger bucks while I make woman's wages as a nurse so the least I can do is clean. But when we go out, I'm the male. There is nothing femmie about me in drab. I keep the girly mannerisms for my dress up days and even those are very subtle. Only drag queens wave all over the place because they don't want to blend. I do. I can live like this for a long time and already have.

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The members who split themselves up . . .

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Hey, Reine, I resemble that remark :doh::D

Seriously, it's not that black and white. Try as we may to compartmentalize the genders into neat, sterile dimensions forever, it's simply the start of a very long journey. Quoting my wife, ". . . after a while seepage starts to occur. You can't completely rid yourself of one in exchange for the other as you once did. With every round trip more sticks and less gets left behind. Thus, it doesn't matter how good you may think you are at concealing things, it starts to show and people start to notice."

So, what I've observed is we all do this differently and in the end that has to be okay. My generation equipped itself with some pretty strong anti-CD sentiments. More recent generations not so much so. No doubt, then, we'll make the journey at different individual speeds (and I will mirror the tortoise more than the hare.) Most importantly, we have to love ourselves and who we are lest we become disfunctional or worse. It took me a quite while to do that and to learn I really am OK.

It would help, too, if we stay respectful of one another. I notice this thread taking on some hairpin turns and in a way that's sad. If we can't coexist peacefully with with our differences is it rational to expect the rest of society will do it for us? Also, I like to think that if we approach this from a thousand or ten thousand different angles we're more likely to make progress than everyone piling in one wagon.

Lastly, I for one will never be the activist that blazes the CD trail, but I will be a strong supporter for those who do blaze the trail and in small ways I will help clear the path. Full social acceptance for what we do is probably not likely in my lifetime. It would be nice to see full tolerance, or to even see disgust completely replaced by curiosity.

I remain thankful I have a supportive spouse to love, and awesome children and grandchildren to dote on. I devote myself to doing that and candidly the yeahs and nea's of CD-ing rank low most of the time. In any event, you can bet I won't miss a good shoe sale because I'm conflicted. :battingeyelashes:

Miss Tee, I meant the members who really do split themselves up into two different personas. Not everyone does this.

Many of the members refer to themselves dressed in the third person, or they say they have certain personality traits or likes/dislikes while dressed that they do not have when not dressed. Years ago, even my own SO felt there were things (quite ordinary things if I may add), that s/he couldn't/wouldn't do in guy mode. This is all changed now, but it took a concerted effort and a lot of introspection.

Jess and Misty have a great point. Why wouldn't a CDer (like Stephanie in #72) be OK with watching chick flicks with their wives, giving heartfelt opinions on the outfits the wives are wearing, enjoy cooking, or whatever else they enjoy doing. Why must these things be reserved for times when CDers are wearing feminine clothing?

This is just an observation, but it astounds me when some members refer to their softer proclivities as their femininity seeping out. My ex (your generation), despite all his faults (lol), was so secure in himself that he was never embarrassed when he cried or when he had a tea party with his little niece, or when he enjoyed watching a chick flick with me. This was a man who cared about how he looked and he was well groomed. He didn't enjoy mucking about with cars, hunting, or any of that stuff. Yet he was still a man. My point is that he was not rigid with his own self-definition the way that so many CDers in this forum seem to be. Does this make sense?

I just think that many if not most CDers grew up so frightened to be found out they constructed thick "masculine" walls around themselves which really is a prison of their own making. A CDer can be a man like my ex and just relax his own rules a bit, enjoy being his own brand of male that is not ultra macho, and keep the CDing private from his friends and employer if he wishes. I think he'd be happier doing this than posturing himself into a rigid masculine role that he does not enjoy.

Yeah the walls we construct are often over built. Just keep in mind that they exist as much to keep something in as they are for protection. So if you crack the gates open a little, it isn't certain just what will come out, or whether you'll put it back in the box later. Assuming the whole edifice doesn't collapse.

Be careful what you wish for I guess.

Sorry,

I have to chime in here. There is a lot of misconception that acting "macho" or following stereotypical male roles/hobbies/interest precludes following more feminine stereotypical interests/roles/hobbies. In reality there is neither except the ones we create in our own minds. I engage in a lot of male oriented past times, I fix cars, do renovations, clear brush but then again so does my wife. I am a soldier and proud of that fact and have engaged in combat but then again I have fought along side female soldiers who hold their own and mix down and dirty with the guys including the proclivity to chew tobacco. It doesn't make them less feminine or me more masculine . . . they do it because that is what they wish to do as do I. On the other hand, I love to cook (always have), I sew, I help my wife clean the house (I truly love to vacuum as it relaxes me - love my Dyson) and I am not adverse to watching a good (heavy emphasis on the good) chick flick just as I enjoy a good zombie flick. All these so called feminine things (not convinced they are) I have done both "en boy" and on occasion "en girl" . . . they are the same as I am the same regardless of the gender I am presenting.

All this to say, do we really need to get wrapped around the axel on what constitutes feminine and/or masculine and how that influences a drive to present "en femme". Nobody can explain why I like to dress on occasion as a girl and I hardly believe it is because on some deep level I am tired of being a guy. Why? Because when I present as Isha, I am still me. I may not go to work "en femme" but Isha is still there. I may not cut the lawn in a skirt and heels but Isha is still there. I may decide to cook dinner "en femme" (as I did tonight) but boy me is still there.

My two cents.

Hugs

Isha

Let yourself go. I've been the supporting male in my family for more than 50 years. I know what it is to be expected to be the male caretaker and instant problem solver. I have found that I can live the male life when necessary, While still being to satisfy my feminine desires. All it takes is setting priorities with your time. If the time to dress feminine allows itself, use it. If not, wait for an opportune moment. Then seize it and enjoy!

it didn't seem to me that anyone in this thread was talking about dismantling walls, only making a window here or there to allow some normal human expression. Nobody can be John Wayne as a guy and Marilyn as a woman and be real without just playing a role. I thought Melissa made a great point that some people seem to feel this obligation to perform certain gendered actions that serve no purpose other than to make them feel adequate as the type of man they perceive themselves to be. Nobody can be a stereotype and be happy. Other people aren't judging as much sometimes as maybe people feel like they are.

Jess, I think a lot of crossdressers would probably still want to look feminine in the manner they choose at certain times no matter how well they live and enjoy their life as a man. It's a very visual thing it seems to me. From how it's described as pink fog, to the urge to purge, it's clear that many people perceive of it as a strong force that they don't have control over always. I think that is one of the reasons communication is so difficult at times, it's perceived as being outside of the person feeling it.

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Originally Posted by Isha

There is a lot of misconception that acting "macho" or following stereotypical male roles/hobbies/interest precludes following more feminine stereotypical interests/roles/hobbies. In reality there is neither except the ones we create in our own minds.

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yes, almost like it is a balancing act sometimes, with one masculine activity in guy mode balancing out a femme activity in girl mode. I think a lot of this kind of thinking is from seeing the two sexes as opposites.

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Originally Posted by Michelle789

I'm pretty sure Bakersfield ain't tolerant.

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you can say that again. Highest rate of pedophilia in the nation as I remember reading, and of child abuse.
Here is an interesting map of american tolerance--Rhode island being the most tolerant
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...tml?ref=sunday

After reading this thread I actually think there is something wrong with me now, I am just a guy who loves doing guy things and will also do girly things when I want, I have had many a tea party and played dolls with my daughter and played cowboys and Indians with my boys, I love to go shopping with my wife just for examples. I cross-dress because I love the clothes nothing more nothing less, the fingernail polish, the perfume, bras, panties, yoga pants, tights and the list goes on, however if I wear fingernail polish in male mode I am suddenly gay or weird, same with long earrings, or even that cute sparkly shirt. WHY? why can I not wear that stuff and still be seen as a normal guy? Hell today I took my son to college, on the way back I changed out of boots, jeans and tshirt and into some tights and a long shirt and tennis shoes, I had the most comfortable drive home ever, but if I would have gotten out of the truck I would have been some pervert on the street it seems. WHY?
I say I am so tired of being a guy because I am suppose to fit into what the world says a guy should look like, it has nothing to do with what guys are suppose to do and what females are suppose to do, those are old point of views anyhow. My wife grew up helping her dad work on cars for example, every relationship should share all the household tasks no matter what they are, but I think I should also be able to put on a skirt and cute tank top and run to the store when its 90 degrees out with some color on my nails or wear yoga pants and a t-shirt with some sparkly earrings and not be looked at like I am a alien from another planet, the clothes are just awesome after all they are just clothes. In fact as I write this, I am fully decked out, makeup, earrings, dress, high heels, the whole 9 yards but I am still me, a guy who enjoys this.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Yeah the walls we construct are often over built. Just keep in mind that they exist as much to keep something in as they are for protection. So if you crack the gates open a little, it isn't certain just what will come out, or whether you'll put it back in the box later. Assuming the whole edifice doesn't collapse.

Be careful what you wish for I guess.

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Paula, you see thats the thing! a CDer does not have a woman inside just waiting to burst out like we did. That is the essential difference between your experience with CDing and hiding your true nature (and mine, i might add) and your average CDers. Before everyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying one is better than the other its just different.

@Dizzy, nothing will change until those men who want to wear skirts in public as men come out and stand up for their right to do so. Social change doesn't just happen you have to fight for it. Blacks, latinos, Women, LGBT etc. have all taken to the streets to fight for their rights and continue to do so. Until crossdressers, who are largely white heterosexual men, decide to get out there and fight for their right to be feminine you will not see the change you seek. just saying!

F A C T. MANY men can and DO wear anything they want to in public in towns and cities large and small. It does not require living anywhere "special". No amount of whining is going to change that. These very Forums are full of such "men" who do this.

It's also a fact that men ARE better equipped to do some jobs than women and vice versa. BUT, unless one is at work where your employer DOES have the right to tell one how to "dress", one can "dress" however they want. And if you want to wear makeup, wigs and forms etc., THERE IS NO LAW TO PREVENT IT.

Sitting around whining about an unaccepting Society is a sign of a CDer whose worst enemy is as close as the nearest mirror.

And NO, I don't feel burdened at all...

This weekend my sister-in-law came to stay with us because her marriage of 25 years is falling apart and she needed some refuge from the storm. It seems he complains that the passion is gone. They've lost the connection they once had. He makes soppy romantic gestures towards her and she doesn't respond. This depresses him so he locks himself in his office to cry. She finds that to be pathetic, weak and effeminate (her words) and it is repulsive to her.

So there you have it. An example of what can happen when you let down the mask of masculinity just a little bit. It's what every man has to think about before they go "integrating" any traits that can be perceived as feminine into their public persona.

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

Paula, you see thats the thing! a CDer does not have a woman inside just waiting to burst out like we did. That is the essential difference between your experience with CDing and hiding your true nature (and mine, i might add) and your average CDers. Before everyone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying one is better than the other its just different.

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Does the CDer not hide who they truly are just as surely as lesbians, gays, bisexuals, or transgendered people do? Oh wait - they are transgendered, aren't they. It's funny, the lesbians and gay folks I know in my life instinctively "get" that there are some common elements to our struggle with society, even if they don't know the first thing about transsexuals. Why do you feel the struggle of a CDer is so different? I don't. I can't imagine what part about my secretly dressing up, being terrified someone would discover me would be much different from the experience of many closet CDs here. Nor are the consequences all that different for them - most of their wives will be terrified that they'll transition - if they are even able to accept it on that level. (Read almost any thread in "loved ones".)

I find your attitude, quite frankly, smacks of prejudice - you want to exclude them from your happy little TS camp. Yeah, most of the girls on the CD forum will never transition. You know what that makes them, in my opinion? Lucky.

Again, I've talked to many, many CDs here on this forum. And the inescapable conclusion I have is that their experience differs from mine largely in terms of degree. They know fear. They know prejudice. They fear for their marriages, or consequences in their real lives. Unlike me, they can remain hidden and avoid some of those consequences - but at the awful cost of living a live of fear and loneliness.

If I am honest and compassionate, I can't tell you which of us has it worse, overall.

I'm sorry if you don't see it that way, I truly am.

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Originally Posted by LilSissyStevie

This weekend my sister-in-law came to stay with us because her marriage of 25 years is falling apart...It seems he complains that the passion is gone. They've lost the connection they once had. He makes soppy romantic gestures towards her and she doesn't respond. This depresses him so he locks himself in his office to cry. She finds that to be pathetic, weak and effeminate (her words) and it is repulsive to her. So there you have it. An example of what can happen when you let down the mask of masculinity just a little bit.

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Their marriage is falling apart. That's not necessarily because he let down the macho mask. It sounds like the passion ended first, and then, when his wife wasn't interested in him anymore, that's when he started breaking down. I'm glad he's able to show emotion right now and hope you can support him during this hard time. It sounds like he could use a friend.

Since she no longer liked him anyway, it's not reasonable to use her reaction as evidence for how a loving wife might react to her beloved husband saying he likes tulips, he dislikes working on cars, and sometimes he feels sad.

No, she was happy until he got all "effeminate" on her, he was the one that was dissatisfied. Now she's lost all respect for him. I sure that neither of them can help feeling the way they do.

She was happy AND passionate about him? Or was he dissatisfied because she was no longer sexually interested in him?

Wow, see what happens when I am not on this board for a bit? lol. I missed a good one here. I tried reading through some of it, but I have not read every response Jess. But I will give my 2 cents in to the original post you put up.

For me, and I view myself as trangendered, that I have a part of me that is more aligned to women.... Having said that, It is not the male side that I ever tire of. I am fine with what expectations there are of me as a man. I feel that I fulfill those for the most part. I also enjoy these as well. For me, it is not abandoning being a guy, but of the society taboo of being feminine. That is what I struggle with. I am one of those who fits both categories. I have a part of me which is male and comfortable with that, but also a feminine side and part of me which is more aligned with women, but I cannot show that to society. Actually, it is not a matter of can't, but of the repercussions if I do.

I do not recall ever thinking or feeling, I am tired of being a guy, I wish I didn't have to do XYZ. It is more of wishing I could do XYZ and there not be an issue with it.

Thanks, gendermutt, that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by JessM.

She was happy AND passionate about him? Or was he dissatisfied because she was no longer sexually interested in him?

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I can't imagine associating the word "passionate" with her. But, from her point of view, she's always been the same. He's the one that changed and that's when she lost all interest in him sexually. Apparently he's been suppressing these feelings for a long time. They've been in counseling for a while and it's come to the point where they feel the need to go their own separate ways. Too bad, they don't seem to have any really horrible issues to deal with like abuse, alcoholism or {gasp} crossdressing. I don't think either of them will find that being single at 50 will be quite as much fun as they imagine.

But suppressing your feelings for a lifetime (and being married to someone who isn't sexually interested in you) also isn't very much fun. I wish them both the best in their new lives.

To quote a sign on the desk of a President, "the buck stops here". I don't mind fixing things, doing what has to be done, but way does the buck always stop with me. I don't remember seeing that it had to stop with me in the wedding vows. Why do I have to make all the difficult desicions? I like the one comment, You walk in the door, right away you hear, the dryer broke, so now I am the miracle worker? Is your finger broken that you can't call the service man, why do I have to be the one to call? Another comment, why is it the guys job to always initiate sex, if the girl wants it she should say so. If she was thirsty, would she wait until a drink was offered, or would she go and get a drink herself! I sometimes think that women live longer than men because they off load burdens onto the guy so he can carry them. Is this gender stereo typing or what? My generation has more than it's share of this.

I admit that I am into Cding more from the sexual side of things. I like to dress up and yea, I relieve myself occasionally at the same time. Why, STRESS relief, the stress of baring the burdens of life weighs you down, what could I do instead? Well there is eating, drinking, drugs, shooting something, yelling, beating on something, kicking the dog...all thing considered I would rather dress up and play with myself, it does less harm. Sorry I was not attempting to be crude.

We all have roles to play, sometimes they are of our own choosing, sometimes not. If Cding helps someone to get a break from the rigours of life, who am I to say no, you can't. One of the problems with this life is living up to anothers expectations, in marriage it is one thing, but in other relationships, it is another. Shouldn't a spouse be helping remove burdens by at least sharing the load, or by letting them CD if that is how they cope with the problems!

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Originally Posted by Gillian Gigs

Why do I have to make all the difficult decisions?

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What happens if you say, "I don't know, what do you think we should do?"

Dizzy, you say

I say I am so tired of being a guy because I am suppose to fit into what the world says a guy should look like

I do agree with you but I also agree with wildaboutheels who points out that society won't change without our making it change. I don't have the gender dysphoria that many cds who want to transition have. I just don't understand why I have to live my life according to the very narrow gender definitions that sometimes seem to be the so called norm. But really, it's a lot weirder than we think. The extent to which you accept or incorporate gender definitions of masculinity or femininity has more to do with your idea of what's acceptable than what is actually accepted by society at large. American society is so incredibly diverse that you can push the boundaries as much as your courage will allow and remain safe as long as you use a small amount of common sense. It's probably not a good idea as a guy to get a drink in a biker's bar dressed as a French Maid, but even there I think you'd also have to be really obnoxiously aggressive to get in much trouble. People in the West are very accepting of deviance. I've lived in the Middle East and for a long time in the American South, and I assure you that Louisiana and Florida are beacons of tolerance compared to even a city as Westernized as Beirut.

I live in a small Florida town. Nobody dresses like I do. I do mean no man, btw. Obviously plenty of women do! I wear a mixture of male and female clothes all the time. I don't wear dresses out but I will wear stockings and tights. I wear short shorts and women's blouses. I wear make up, and I am not young. You know what? I think a lot of guys like it. I know a lot of women do, because they compliment me. About half as many times as women guys also compliment me, or give me a thumbs up. I get some disapproving looks but I have yet to have anyone insult me. Many people want to relax the rigidity of gender expectations about dress and probably about many other things. They just need people in all age groups and ethnicities to publicly push the boundaries. So push those boundaries as much as your courage and good sense will allow.

Because, if you don't, who will?

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Originally Posted by devida

Because, if you don't, who will?

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Goodness Devida, I was just suggesting that guys admit they don't like working on cars, and that riled up PQ something awful.

I can't wait for the fallout on this one. ;-)

Sorry to come across as the ditsy one here, but it's a bit tough to follow the twists and turns in this thread. Is there a forgone conclusion that we must be unhappy if we are not out to the world in a fully blended, harmonious gender presentation? If so, nothing could be further from the truth.

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Originally Posted by JessM.

What happens if you say, "I don't know, what do you think we should do?"

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I can't speak for others, but from my point of view, the more input anyone can get helps improve the chances of making a good decision. Hence what a spouse should do would be to offer any input that may be deemed as being helpful to a decision making process.

Yea I am with you that someone has to push the limits in order for them to become normal, and I am doing what I am able to do I love wearing yoga pants and wear them all the time (I do hide my junk when I wear them) but in a town of over 100,000 people I cannot recall a time when I have even seen 1 other guy with yoga pants on when I have been out and about, same as finger nail polish except for the occasional black of course. Today I went out to the Post Office wearing high heal boots and womens jeans with a womens scarf over my coat and blue finger nail polish, I loved it. Just wish it was more normal and I would see others, there is security in numbers.

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Originally Posted by MissTee

Is there a forgone conclusion that we must be unhappy if we are not out to the world in a fully blended, harmonious gender presentation? If so, nothing could be further from the truth.

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LOL. No, I'm glad you're happy, however that happens. But personally I just want to encourage people to try to help break down the rigid gendered boxes whenever they feel they could help with that project. It could use a lot of help!

According to Robert Heinlein, “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”

I love being a man and doing what men do. Growing up, I steered myself into masculine persuits. Tools. Cars. Outdoors. All that other stuff. These things are still interesting to me but they're not as important as they once were. I missed out on so much by focusing solely on masculine pursuits. I was left with a vacuum in my life. Crossdressing helps to fill that vacuum.

I'm just starting to scratch the surface of fashion, for example. There's so much to learn about body types and the clothes that work with each type of body. Now I'm learning about lengths, patterns, proportions, color. I get to experience how the design and pattern of a dress or skirt makes me feel.

I love doing what women do. Putting on makeup and a pretty dress is visceral. It allows me to see the world through a different lens. There's this feeling of stepping outside of myself and seeing just how I fit in the world. It puts things in perspective. As I learn these things, I try to integrate them into who I already am. I want to be a better person tomorrow than I am today.

To add the following to Heinlein's list: walk in heels, do an oil change, choose the right shade of blush, use a plumb-bob... The list goes on.